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Post by drivewasher on Mar 17, 2012 13:39:13 GMT
Ive looked for ages to find a RfR for these, if only to "advice" but as said there are no RfR's listed. BUT there is a "tick box" in the non component advisories. You know where the remove item from drivers view is n all that!
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kjb
Full Member
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Post by kjb on Mar 17, 2012 15:04:45 GMT
I'm sure there is now an advise under non other related components on the vts say's inner steering rack ends worn (or similar) & an option to tick as dangerous,but not rfr,so how can we fail these?
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Daveg
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Post by Daveg on Mar 17, 2012 15:45:32 GMT
Somebody asked me about this steering type of problem on the last mot seminar, he also asked if I knew of a reason for rejection for the inner steering rack to track rod ball joints? VOSA some time back did a write up in the Matters of Testing about these inner joints. Most of the time these inner ball joints are a pass and advise, where I think VOSA advised that the NT's would have some difficulty deciding which part of the rack was worn, i.e. the inner ball joint or the bearing, if I remember correctly? However, there is a steering check that can be used in the Testers Manual to fully assess the criteria, and I don't believe that VOSA would have a valid argument against any NT who used this method of inspection to assess the wear in the steering mechanism. In section 2 of the testers manual, look at section 2.2A.1a, you will read that the method of inspection is asking you to check the maximum amount of free play allowable in the steering mechanism, that is the whole steering mechanism from the steering wheel to the road wheels, so how would you do that? Well, from the drivers side of the vehicle standing at the drivers door, if power steering is fitted with the engine at idle, gently turn the steering wheel leftwards and rightwards until the road wheel just about starts to move. Take note how much the steering wheel actually moves if any before the road wheel starts to move, if the steering wheel is moving but the road wheel is not, put a chalk mark on the steering wheel and measure the amount of movement up to the point the road wheel starts to move, if this movement is more than 013mm at the steering wheel for a rack and pinion steering mechanism, then issue a fail for that reason and reference the inner steering rack to track rods ball joints in the space provided in the reason for rejection. Repeat this for the nearside front road wheel, but obviously use an assistant to watch the road wheel for movement. As this method of inspection is looking at free play in the whole of the steering mechanism, if more than 013mm is present, I can't see how VOSA could argue that the inner ball joints would be a pass and advise, because technically you have failed the steering mechanism for excess free play and referenced the inner ball joints Dave
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Post by drivewasher on Mar 17, 2012 16:59:44 GMT
What if it's the pinion and rack teeth worn? Who's testing this car the NT or the assistant? Surley (sorry I know your names aren't Shirley) The NT must be able to "feel" the steering wheel movent AND observ the road wheel(s) I understand the steering wheel freeplay check is to determin wear in the rack pinion & teeth. and the uj/flexi couplings. On a steering box vehicle any wear in the multitude of joints can be traced visually on a steering rock viewed from underneath. I test the inner track rod joints on the rack with the 9 O'clock & 3 O'clock road wheel shake on unlocked turnplates.
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Daveg
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Post by Daveg on Mar 17, 2012 21:14:22 GMT
The tester cannot be in two places at once, therefore VOSA say that the parts of a test that require an assistant must use the assistant. VOSA once advised that with regards positioning of a roller brake tester, that if the NT could not see the gauges when sat in the drivers seat, that the assistant should operate the brakes while the NT observes the results. In the steering example, the NT is making the judgment call and using the assistant to subjectively assess the complete free play/wear in the whole of the steering mechanism, and not indivdual items. In my previous thread I did mention about typing in the box about "inner ball joints worn" to help the repairer, but somewhere along the way whoever is repairing the vehicle must have some ability to understand that the steering mechanism must be completely checked out at the point of repairs, it's kind of like advising someone that they have a water leak and then a plumber says I fixed a leak but now you have another? You will see the biggest leak first, once fixed normally the system is checked out and make sure that no other smaller leak is present, its the same with car repairs, but somebody has to be able to think it through? Dave
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nitros44
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Post by nitros44 on Mar 17, 2012 21:24:25 GMT
If you go through the method of inspection like Dave has described and you come to the part of the test where the wheels are rocked side to side and you have eliminated everything else in the steering system that would of caused the free play at the steering wheel up to now; and all that is left to check is side to side movement and check for play in the outer/inner track rod ends etc,under load. Providing that the outer track rod ends are OK any excess free play on the inner joints can be detected by the amount of movement of the arm between inner and outer joints;or felt when moving the wheel side to side; in other words the play is confined between these two points where as when the rack is worn it tends to be between the pinion gear and rack shaft ;the free play is similar but the whole rack shaft moves including the track rods
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Daveg
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Post by Daveg on Mar 17, 2012 21:53:19 GMT
An alternative method is to do the free play check first at the steering wheel , then using the assistant to rock the steering observe any free play/wear in the outer track rods under load, and holding the steering track rods the NT can feel for free play/wear in the inner steering rack to track rods, which normally can be felt knocking in the ball and socket as the steering is rocked. Alternatively you could; Phone a friend ;D, ask the audience , or you could take your chances and have 50:50 Dave ;D
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Mar 17, 2012 23:45:30 GMT
What's wrong with feeling for a worn inner rack end ball joint by pinching it through the rack gaiter with your fingertips ? Where does the method of inspection state that it is a visual check only?
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nitros44
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Post by nitros44 on Mar 18, 2012 0:56:40 GMT
What's wrong with feeling for a worn inner rack end ball joint by pinching it through the rack gaiter with your fingertips ? Where does the method of inspection state that it is a visual check only? What has to be remembered here is that these joints are attached by a threaded collar at the end of the rack which may be spring loaded or have a flexible seat.(ball/sliding rack bushes) Due to the joint being enclosed and NOT VISIBLE it will not be possible to DETERMINE whether any of the play is due to wear in the joint or if its any built in movement of the ball or sliding rack bush.So unless excessive free play is detected at the steering wheel and provided no other defects are present,then any play found at these inner joints would be pass/advise
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Post by aylesburyjock on Mar 18, 2012 18:18:51 GMT
I can not believe the idea that the tester and an assistant can assess the free play between the steering wheel and the nearside road wheel with the degree of accuracy needed for the mot.
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Daveg
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Post by Daveg on Mar 18, 2012 18:35:46 GMT
So you are saying then that a person cannot turn a steering wheel leftwards and rightwards slowly until the road wheel starts to move, therefore saying that one person can't turn the steering wheel while another person watches the road wheel move? Interesting Dave
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Post by aylesburyjock on Mar 22, 2012 21:51:42 GMT
So you are saying then that a person cannot turn a steering wheel leftwards and rightwards slowly until the road wheel starts to move, therefore saying that one person can't turn the steering wheel while another person watches the road wheel move? Interesting Dave The person watching is doing so from the nearside of the vehicle, and cannot accurately assess the correlation between the initial movent of the steering wheel by the tester and the movement of the road wheel. He cannot watch both at once, and since the failure criteria is only 13mm on a rack and pinion there is no way. That's exactly what I am saying. I think you are deluding yourself.
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Daveg
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Post by Daveg on Mar 22, 2012 22:24:41 GMT
I am pritty sure that the NT could say to the assistant tell the NT when the road wheel just starts to move, then the NT can make an assessment, which is not an exact science but a subjective assessment looking for 13mm. If a steering joint is so badly worn it would quite easily be over 13mm, so not really that difficult to assess really ;D Dave
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Post by aylesburyjock on Mar 23, 2012 23:05:56 GMT
With a human reaction time of approximately 0.5 seconds 13mm could come and go with nobody noticing. This idea is nonsense. Except in Daveg world obviously.
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Post by flashgordon1 on Mar 24, 2012 21:19:33 GMT
Oh for goodness sake guys......................We all know when a steering component is fecked or pass/advise. Its all getting a bit silly is it not.........
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Daveg
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Post by Daveg on Mar 24, 2012 21:43:07 GMT
Exactly my point , thank you Dave
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hayden
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Post by hayden on Mar 25, 2012 12:14:05 GMT
hi dave still having a laugh, keep up the good work. LOL ;D ;D ;D
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Daveg
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Post by Daveg on Mar 25, 2012 13:49:27 GMT
I am doing my dam hardest LOL ;D ;D, these NT's keep firing their bullets at me LOL ;D, surely they know by know that everything is a PASS and ADVISE LOL ;D
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Post by paul1965 on Mar 25, 2012 23:06:59 GMT
yeh ive had quite a few with inner track rods worn out too golfs and peugeots quite common there too , had a few KA power racks gushing oil out also
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phaetonott
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Post by phaetonott on Apr 3, 2012 18:51:19 GMT
As prb says above, I was told the only way to assess these was by checking the free play at the steering wheel rim. However if I find one that my experience tells me is totally shagged I do use the "inner ball joint" to fail it. If I find the front wheel can move more then about one centimetre I call that excessive, and that much usually causes excessive free play in the steering wheel. Fail if for free play at the steering wheel and let the guy who repairs it decide which part to replace.
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