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Post by jayeastanglia on Jun 23, 2006 13:29:33 GMT
I have heard of ford ka steering racks starting to wear quite badly and at low miles(15-25000)on 2001 onwards being the worst.this may have been due to a change in something.. Has anyone else found this to be the case.
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spanner
Nominated Tester
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Post by spanner on Jun 30, 2006 11:05:36 GMT
Got one failed today but have to say it's the first out of many tested.
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wkdx
New Member
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Post by wkdx on Jan 8, 2007 3:54:22 GMT
we have had quite a few ford ka's fail on this item fiesta's seem to have the same problem, renaults also suffer from this problem in particular the laguna and clio
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Rob
Nominated Tester
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Post by Rob on Jan 8, 2007 7:30:54 GMT
On most of those models mentioned, it's normally the inner track rod end where it screws into the rack and pinion. There's no need to replace the whole rack.
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Daveg
NT & VTS Council member
I believe I am perfect, but others may differ in opinion?
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Post by Daveg on Aug 31, 2009 9:09:20 GMT
The Rack and Pinion type steering I think you are referring to has two inner pivots enclosed behind steering rack gaitors, these inner pivots some may refer to as ball joints, but cannot be seen visually and some years ago when mentioned on a refresher course, the trainer advised they were a none tested item?
Having read through the mot regulations the only area that I could relate to a pivot point was (2.2B.1g), which refers to excessive play in a pivot point, eg a intermediate drop arm, like on Vauxhall Omega where they bolt to the chassis then attach to the steering.
When I notice free play in these inner Pivot points (as I refer to them) on the steering arms I have always Passed and Advised, even when I wanted to fail them in an example when I have felt them severally worn behind the enclosed gaitors.
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graham
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Post by graham on Aug 31, 2009 10:28:07 GMT
I brought up the concern about these "inner ball joints" at my latest refresher course after we had had some discussion about it at my garage. The trainer said not to be failed because as they are hidden within a rack boot you cannot determine what/if/how much is worn. Also there is no specific fail for these on the VTS device. Ok so on some hard plastic type boots it may be difficult but on the soft rubber ones it is easy to feel the play in the ball and socket joint.
I then asked "if we cannot fail because we cannot see the play in a joint hidden by the gaiter, can we fail an inner sill because we cannot see the corrosion under the carpet".......... Errrrr
To my mind feeling excess play in the inner ball joint is just as dangerous as seeing play in an outer TRE. Failure of either component results in the same action - NO STEERING.
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Daveg
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Post by Daveg on Aug 31, 2009 11:10:46 GMT
I suppose also, because I do agree with what Graham has said above, that if the trainers are saying Pass and Advise because a tester cannot see the play, then to my mind that theory must be questioned?
As Graham said, corrosion to an inner sill, so by examination a tester presses along the length by finger and thumb pressure, and the inner sill within the prescribed area is crushed, and this is further understood by the Sound of the panel disintergrating?
A tester knows in his mind and can quite clearly see in his mind the understanding that NOTHING else within that panel structure can cause that noise and feel by that panel being crushed, what else could it be?
Does an mot tester know what components assemble a steering rack?
Is it not fair to say that given an mot tester has either passed the NTTA, or is a qualified motor vehicle engineer, that the mot tester would know that the only item enclosed behind that gaitor is a Ball and Socket?
What else could be there?
How could you assess excessive wear in that component?
By comparison to the opposite side and your experience over time surely?
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Post by btcc130 on Aug 31, 2009 15:18:17 GMT
reading hilliers fundermental of motor vehicle they show on the picture of a rack that they are ball joints and they tell you to read this book when going for ntta so ? i personally think that they are a fail and i do fail them but they have to be excessive !! most are pass and advise i fail them as ball joints because that is what they are !!!!!!
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Rob
Nominated Tester
Posts: 279
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Post by Rob on Aug 31, 2009 15:57:17 GMT
If there's lateral play on the track rod and it's not the outer track rod end, it's normally play in the inner track rod end ball joint. My VE told me to fail it as "excessive play in offside/nearside inner track rod end". If it was literally "hanging out" you wouldn't issue a pass and advise for something that is obviously dangerous, just because you can't physically see it. Another point for the "it's behind a gaiter and you can't fail it because you can't see it" argument, you can't see play in a cv joint because of the rubber gaiter, but if you hear it knocking when you spin the wheel on full lock you know there's play in there. It's up to you to make a decision on knowledge and experience whether you want to pass and advise or fail it. In all honesty it's getting quite a common fail/advise these days, I can't remember having so many problems with inner track rod end ball joints years ago. Renaults and Fords seem to be very susceptible to this. Having read through the mot regulations the only area that I could relate to a pivot point was (2.2B.1g), which refers to excessive play in a pivot point, eg a intermediate drop arm, like on Vauxhall Omega where they bolt to the chassis then attach to the steering. The correct name for those is Steering Idler arms.
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graham
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Post by graham on Aug 31, 2009 16:13:57 GMT
My VE told me to fail it as "excessive play in offside/nearside inner track rod end Yup, that is how we fail them by selecting TRE as a failure and then indicating inner. Logically the rack is the inner section with one "track rod" linked to each end of the rack. Each "track rod" having an inner and outer TRE. It just gets me how insistent the trainer was about not even checking them, let alone failing over such a serious steering component.
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Daveg
NT & VTS Council member
I believe I am perfect, but others may differ in opinion?
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Post by Daveg on Aug 31, 2009 17:44:04 GMT
Please don't think I am misleading anyone when I mention the inner ball joints of the track rods as Pivot Points, yes I agree they are known as Ball Joints in the Text Books, and there is nothing wrong with that, but when I referred to them as Pivot Points, or inner Pivots, this is because the Rack and Pinion Steering System is fitted to vehicles with Independent Front Suspension, and when the road surfaces are uneven then the front offside or nearside suspension will lift or be lowered due to the road surface, to allow for this the steering track rod must be allowed to pivot up or down to allow the track rod to move with the suspension systems.
Any ball joint on a suspension system is designed to allow the suspension to pivot at that point, this is not a wrong terminology, but may seem different than what is written in the text books.
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Post by btcc130 on Aug 31, 2009 19:18:25 GMT
you cannot fail it as inner trackrod end because it is not it is a ball joint !!!!
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Rob
Nominated Tester
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Post by Rob on Aug 31, 2009 20:38:00 GMT
you cannot fail it as inner trackrod end because it is not it is a ball joint !!!! Please enlighten us with words of wisdom, if it isn't a ball joint what is it?
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Post by jonesy1975 on Aug 31, 2009 21:31:10 GMT
the previous poster is saying it IS a ball joint if you read it again , i had to look twice
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Post by shpauly on Sept 1, 2009 19:36:01 GMT
i fail them under ball joints in steering section and add(steering tie rod end) to fail sheet.
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Rob
Nominated Tester
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Post by Rob on Sept 1, 2009 19:43:24 GMT
the previous poster is saying it IS a ball joint if you read it again , i had to look twice My mistake and apologies to the poster.
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hayden
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Post by hayden on Sept 3, 2009 8:54:20 GMT
on KA's i have come across quite a few loose steering rack mounting bolts. i always give them a good look at.
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Post by mountains on Sept 3, 2009 17:38:27 GMT
i work in a factors as well as training to be a tester we sell quite a few KA racks and a lot of track rods which can be bought separately
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Post by aylesburyjock on Nov 15, 2010 8:45:06 GMT
The outer track rod ends fail on excessive play because a relatively small amount of wear could cause the joint to separate and the ball literally fall out. If you look at the construction of the inner ball joint you can see the amount of wear necessary for this to happen is unlikely and that is the reason we have not been given the failure option without straining to find other names for the item. Pass and advise,and explain to the presenter it really does need repairing.
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prb5244
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Post by prb5244 on Nov 16, 2010 18:54:54 GMT
when i went for recent refresher this was also decussed and trainer said if you dont have excessplay at steering wheel and no other play is found because track control inner bush is conseeled you can not see whats worn and they are not highly stessed jionts like balljiont and track-rod ends it is pass and advice but if the steering gaiter is split you might be able to see the jiont and excess play might be found in that case you might find excess move ment in rack inner pressor valve new item in manual now have fun every body
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