motdave
Nominated Tester
Posts: 242
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Post by motdave on Nov 12, 2006 0:41:28 GMT
A vehicle was tested last week by a tester at my VTS. The emissions part was first, but the vehicle was pumping out too much smoke that it would be stupid to put it on the EGA - it would end up choking the machine's filters. The rest of the test was done, and the end result was that it was all OK except for the 'dense smoke emitted' and emissions test not carried out. A VT30 was issued, with the failure item shown as 'dense smoke emitted...' The VT30 informed the customer that he could leave it at the VTS for repair & retesting - with no charge for retest within 10 working days, or he could take it away and bring it back within 10 working days for a partial retest. He brought it back yesterday, and the emissions were tested first before logging into the computer. The emissions were clean, results within limits and no smoke emitted. The vehicle was logged into the computer for 'Partial Retest (Left VTS)', but the computer wouldn't proceed to issuing a pass certificate until the Brake Test Results were entered !!! A test log is ordered at our VTS every Friday, and downloaded on Saturday... For this vehicle, it shows the test type as 'Full Retest (derived by system, not selected by NT)', and this has a time alongside of less than 10 minutes to complete! The computer did not tell the tester that he should be doing a Full Retest. The tester selected Partial Retest (left VTS), and the VT30 told the customer he would be having a Partial Retest. What is going on ?
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stoker
Nominated Tester
Posts: 42
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Post by stoker on Nov 12, 2006 13:20:48 GMT
I think that dense smoke emission is a reason to refuse to test a vehicle and not a failure item , and thats why you have to start again with a full test. It mentions this on the latest dvd
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motdave
Nominated Tester
Posts: 242
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Post by motdave on Nov 12, 2006 14:13:40 GMT
I think that dense smoke emission is a reason to refuse to test a vehicle and not a failure item , and thats why you have to start again with a full test. It mentions this on the latest dvd Hmmm... So what about the wording on the VT30 ? The VT30 informed the customer that he could leave it at the VTS for repair & retesting - with no charge for retest within 10 working days, or he could take it away and bring it back within 10 working days for a partial retest.
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spanner
Nominated Tester
Posts: 191
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Post by spanner on Nov 12, 2006 21:24:14 GMT
That wordings printed on every VT30 dave. I think it will eventually stop printing this once all the old stock of VT30's have been used up. Sure I read that it will be on the back of the form but at the moment the wording on present stationary doesn't include the changes to free retest and new partial tests.
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spanner
Nominated Tester
Posts: 191
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Post by spanner on Nov 13, 2006 12:53:19 GMT
Forget the above, I checked today stationary has been changed because we still have some of the old stuff and it's different.
Checking the manual REFUSAL to test the wording is " The vehicle emits SUBSTANTIAL quantities of AVOIDABLE smoke. Reason for rejection is " emits excessive DENSE BLUE or clearly visible BLACK smoke.
I have a funny feeling this has more to do with the fact the tester noted emissions were NOT TESTED!
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motdave
Nominated Tester
Posts: 242
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Post by motdave on Nov 13, 2006 15:58:56 GMT
Reason for rejection is " emits excessive DENSE BLUE or clearly visible BLACK smoke. That is the RfR that was on the VT30. That's what I assumed, too. But there is no mention of 'Emissions Not Tested' on the VT30. I have seen something like [X9999 Emissions not tested] on VT30's in the past, but not on this one. The tester didn't test the emissions, but doesn't remember if he selected 'Emissions Not Tested'. I think I will try registering a training test, and go through the motions to see what happens... The main query I have is that the VT30 told the customer he was entitled to a partial retest. The tester did a partial retest, but the computer wanted a Full Retest - entering brake readings, showing as 'Full Retest' on the test log, etc I don't want to bother Siemens or VOSA with this yet, until I have a clear understanding of what happened. Although a copy of the VT30 has been kept with the VT40 Check list, and noted that a partial retest was done...
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spanner
Nominated Tester
Posts: 191
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Post by spanner on Nov 13, 2006 17:27:33 GMT
This afternoon I checked a test log we requested last week and my boss has one with the same 'Full Retest (derived by system, not selected by NT)' I'll check further tomorrow and see what he failed it on initially.
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motdave
Nominated Tester
Posts: 242
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Post by motdave on Nov 13, 2006 20:48:12 GMT
This afternoon I checked a test log we requested last week and my boss has one with the same 'Full Retest (derived by system, not selected by NT)' I'll check further tomorrow and see what he failed it on initially. ...take a look to see how long the test took to complete. The one I am looking at was a Full Retest in 12 minutes!!
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spanner
Nominated Tester
Posts: 191
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Post by spanner on Nov 13, 2006 21:40:58 GMT
Took 32 mins Dave I did notice that much. Will find out what it failed on, see if boss had anything not tested.
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motdave
Nominated Tester
Posts: 242
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Post by motdave on Nov 14, 2006 23:59:28 GMT
Registered the same vehicle for test using the Training Test functions. Failed it on 'Dense blue smoke at idle' & 'Dense blue smoke when accelerating'Did not select any 'not tested' items, neither did I 'Abort' or 'Abandon' the test. The VT30 was issued with the same 'bring back within 10 days for partial retest' message. Logged it back in for retest & was asked to enter brake readings. (ie a Full Retest) - all that I think should be done is to recheck the emissions.
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spanner
Nominated Tester
Posts: 191
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Post by spanner on Nov 15, 2006 17:32:40 GMT
I checked bosses one Dave but it only failed on seeized brake load valve and a bit of welding. Car was brought back repaired (supposed to be) but welding wasn't done properly so failed again. 3rd test was the one with derived message so I thought ah the boss had went to do another PARTIAL retest and system will have said NO it's FULL TEST. On checking date i found it to be a couple of days before we started the new retest procedures so still non the wiser. Not as if he could have selected anything other that full normal test.
Will be interesting to see the answer to this one. Hope you get it from someone.
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motdave
Nominated Tester
Posts: 242
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Post by motdave on Nov 15, 2006 20:05:38 GMT
I think that dense smoke emission is a reason to refuse to test a vehicle and not a failure item , and thats why you have to start again with a full test. It mentions this on the latest dvd It would have to emit 'Substantial' quanities of smoke to become a refusal to test... & therefore the same for 'Abandon' test. The vehicle emited 'Dense' smoke at idle & acceleration. These are both RfR's as per the manual. The tester did not inform the MOT computer that emissions weren't tested, but tested them at the re-test. At no time did the computer tell the tester he should fo a Full Retest.
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Post by hamvideo on Nov 16, 2006 0:07:02 GMT
Hi all. Motdave, how do you qualify the "enter brake test results" as a full retest, if the vehicle did not originally fail on brake performance related requirements there is no need to record the brake results on the retest, you are given the option of skipping the results entry on the brake test results screen, the system will then go straight to the final test results screen and authorise a "pass" upon your prompt, assuming of course that there were no further RFR's on the retested items. This reply is slightly of topic but relevant, I am picking up on the "full retest" comment when a partial retest was requested.
regards to all.
Henry.
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spanner
Nominated Tester
Posts: 191
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Post by spanner on Nov 16, 2006 0:23:56 GMT
Hi Henry,
yes I skip entering the brake results as well but I assumed Dave would know to do this. Also wouldn't explain the one my boss did which was before the new partial retest started. The vehicle was taken away repaired brought back to us so could only have a FULL TEST anyway.
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motdave
Nominated Tester
Posts: 242
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Post by motdave on Nov 16, 2006 13:17:22 GMT
Hi all. Motdave, how do you qualify the "enter brake test results" as a full retest, if the vehicle did not originally fail on brake performance related requirements there is no need to record the brake results on the retest, you are given the option of skipping the results entry on the brake test results screen, the system will then go straight to the final test results screen and authorise a "pass" upon your prompt, assuming of course that there were no further RFR's on the retested items. This reply is slightly of topic but relevant, I am picking up on the "full retest" comment when a partial retest was requested. regards to all. Henry. The computer would not let the tester proceed without entering brake test results. (- I re-logged the vehicle under Training Test mode, and the system did the same to me). When checking the Test Log the day after, the retest was categorised as a 'Full Retest (derived by system - not selected by NT)' All other retests that month had 'Partial Retest (left VTS) or Partial Retest (minor items)' as their test types. The question should be: Why did the computer decide that a vehicle failing on 'Dense Smoke' should have a Full Retest - and without informing the tester that the 'Partial Retest (Left VTS) option that he had selected had been over-ridden ? The 'Full Retest' was done in only 12 minutes - what will VOSA say ?
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Post by hamvideo on Nov 17, 2006 22:50:53 GMT
Motdave, Did the computer insist on actual brake results entry, ie: did it not respond to the " abandon brake test results" option which is our normal response to the request on a partial retest not involving brake test criteria. I would assume in your case that as the system has recategorized emissions retesting as no longer qualifying as a minor item and that you have brought to light an anomaly in the programing of the system by Siemens. By the way, have you noticed that you can now fastrack retest by NT after the vehicle has "left VTS" if you do not need to enter brake test results or change the expiry date , no VT40 will be printed, maybe you could try this option if you get the same problem again. Maybe there is an answer to your query but no one has come up with one apart from a system malfunction.
Regards Henry.
Reason for Editing: Spelling error
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Post by hamvideo on Nov 17, 2006 23:12:53 GMT
To Admin. Despite three attempts to edit out "for your information" in the first paragraph, not typed be me in the first place, it still appears in the posting!!
More anomaly's, such is life!!
Regards Henry.
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Post by Admin on Nov 17, 2006 23:40:32 GMT
To Admin. Despite three attempts to edit out "for your information" in the first paragraph, not typed be me in the first place, it still appears in the posting!! More anomaly's, such is life!! Regards Henry. 'FYI' was being converted to 'For Your Information' This has now been resolved.
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Post by Admin on Nov 17, 2006 23:50:07 GMT
It seems that either:
The VTS Devices are programmed to interpret the failure item of 'Dense Smoke' as the equivalent of 'Abandon Test' / 'Refuse to Test'. This would therefore require a Full Retest.
or
Failing on 'Dense Smoke' would be a difficult item to assess as to what components had been disturbed / removed in performing the repairs. And therefore, rather than allow NT's to use their own judgement in re-assessing only disturbed components, the VTS Device prefers that a Full Retest should be carried out.
It does seem odd that no notice of Abandoning Test was issued and neither any item selected as being Not Tested. Also why the NT was not informed at registering the Retest that a Full Retest should be carried out.
Siemens / VOSA need to be contacted on this issue. Something is not right with the system - or it is doing something that we as testers haven't been informed about.
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immy
Nominated Tester
Posts: 61
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Post by immy on Jun 6, 2009 20:47:49 GMT
wat i think it was that to sort out the emission you would have to interfere with alot of components so the computer overrid it
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