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Post by baz657 on Sept 12, 2005 17:05:00 GMT
We've all seen them - amber coated indicator bulbs where the coating just flakes off.
Where do you stand/sit in the argument? VOSA say it's at the testers disgression so lets find out where that line is. Does your decision vary dependant on front and rear?
I know where I would make a decision, but not voted yet as to not influence the poll.
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Steven
Nominated Tester
Posts: 131
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Post by Steven on Sept 21, 2005 7:11:22 GMT
For items such as this, I can't see why a colour chart hasn't been produced.
ie a strip of card with say a dozen shades of amber. From full amber through to white. The tester lines the colour card up to match the colour being emitted from the light. The card would show pass or fail. Simple.
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wingnut
Nominated Tester
Posts: 186
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Post by wingnut on Sept 21, 2005 18:13:21 GMT
Steven, most of the lens do strange tricks as they are collective unless i am mistaken, how do you feel about amount of white light emitted from these type of lens when testing with a colour card?
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yanno
Nominated Tester
Posts: 76
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Post by yanno on Sept 21, 2005 19:13:51 GMT
my ve always told me: 'at a reasonable distance, just decide if it's more amber than white' i've used this criteria (right or wrongly) & had no 'problems' (phew) yanno
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wingnut
Nominated Tester
Posts: 186
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Post by wingnut on Sept 22, 2005 6:58:41 GMT
Yanno,thanks for the good reply i will comment on this after Steven give his reply .
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Steven
Nominated Tester
Posts: 131
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Post by Steven on Sept 22, 2005 12:13:32 GMT
It was just a suggestion, but it would give us all a measurable standard to apply. It would give the customer something to see what level we are failing it against.
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yanno
Nominated Tester
Posts: 76
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Post by yanno on Sept 22, 2005 18:57:11 GMT
hi steve, do y ou think this one falls into tester's discretion? or a tester's opinion on a 'degree of amberness'? i agree-we need a definition of the fail criteria (a universal definition) yanno
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Tom
Nominated Tester
Posts: 227
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Post by Tom on Sept 22, 2005 19:17:42 GMT
I'm sure we are all familiar with the manual text: 'A direction indicator' RfR 1d 'does not show light of the appropriate colour.'
MoI 1a 'that every direction indicator emits amber light, except vehicles first used before 1 September 1965 where both front indicators may be white and both rear indicators red.'
So, to merge the two paragraphs & account for modern vehicles, 'A direction indicator does not show amber light'
This is where the ambiguity comes in. Does the light have to be completely amber, partially amber, slightly amber, or just have a hint of amber ?
I like Steven's idea, but don't think it would work. Perhaps an amber filter could be supplied instead. Place the filter over the light. If the light is amber enough, then it won't show through the filter, but if it is too white, then it would be seen through the filter & result in a fail.
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wingnut
Nominated Tester
Posts: 186
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Post by wingnut on Sept 22, 2005 20:15:38 GMT
I beleve if it was a court of law dicision on the terminoligy of "reasons for rejection" on post 1st Sept 1965 cars "does not show light of the appropriate colour" the colour being amber then ANY white light emitted would in my eyes be a fail on those words. Stupid maybe. Steven to measure with a colour strip with the type of collective lens with light scatter it would be almost impossible with the operational flashes. Ii would have thought if it became clear that they could emit some white light within the testing then it would be the testers discretion? Yanno, Phew indeed.
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VT40
VTS Site Manager
Site Manager/Tester
Posts: 2
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Post by VT40 on Feb 27, 2009 16:20:44 GMT
Re: How amber is amber
I think I've considered all the posts in trying to apply a fair pass/fail decision in the past, but I find that if you compare all the indicators and find one/some significantly showing less amberosity (there probably is a correct term !) than the others then fail it/them. The advantage is you have some evidence to show the vehicle presenter.
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Daveg
NT & VTS Council member
I believe I am perfect, but others may differ in opinion?
Posts: 1,549
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Post by Daveg on Aug 29, 2009 14:02:47 GMT
How can one reach a reasonable conclusions and use it as a standard across the range of vehicles being tested daily?
I stand in front of the vehicle and assess the colour of light emitted, I look and I see two different colours, one is amber and the other is the reflection which appears to be white?
So how do I conclude the issue during my test routine and still do everything in a reasonble time?
Simple, if its not pure white, or a very large portion of light emitted is white, then I make a note of the regulation on my VT40, (1.5A.1d) offside front and say nearside front, then when I do my interior inspection, I switch on the lamps and look at the reflection of colour bouncing back at me from the mirrors.
When the bulbs are deteriorated, the light reflected back through the mirrors will be white, then I fail them.
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Post by wackiacki on Jul 29, 2010 15:29:53 GMT
this is a toughy, but with respect is a simple decision for me. most early e46's i test do tend to suffer from a bit of discolouration to there direction indicator bulbs. i go with the thought that the mot is the minimum requirement for road legal use and therefore does not have to be like chris evans's head. if im thinking for too long if there too discoloured there probably not and should pass and advise.
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nickryal
Nominated Tester
Class 4, 5 & 7
Posts: 6
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Post by nickryal on Aug 4, 2010 0:42:02 GMT
as i was told by a scary vosa man if its not the same color as the revers light then its not white so it passes go figure
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Post by paul1965 on Oct 29, 2011 15:05:37 GMT
looking at the light when it flashes if it closer to white than amber fail it and if in between pass advise that lamp is fading in colour !!
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Daveg
NT & VTS Council member
I believe I am perfect, but others may differ in opinion?
Posts: 1,549
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Post by Daveg on Oct 29, 2011 16:22:57 GMT
Just to throw a spanner in the works ;D
What happens then if an NT suffers from colour blindness?
There are different types, how can you assess it correctly for mot?
White = White ;D
Never heard anyone say they could not see that during a test ;D
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nitros44
Nominated Tester
esto es un negocio serio
Posts: 741
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Post by nitros44 on Nov 2, 2011 1:15:57 GMT
How can one reach a reasonable conclusions and use it as a standard across the range of vehicles being tested daily? I stand in front of the vehicle and assess the colour of light emitted, I look and I see two different colours, one is amber and the other is the reflection which appears to be white? So how do I conclude the issue during my test routine and still do everything in a reasonble time? Simple, if its not pure white, or a very large portion of light emitted is white, then I make a note of the regulation on my VT40, (1.5A.1d) offside front and say nearside front, then when I do my interior inspection, I switch on the lamps and look at the reflection of colour bouncing back at me from the mirrors. When the bulbs are deteriorated, the light reflected back through the mirrors will be white, then I fail them. So what your saying is you would only fail them based on what you see in the mirrors"
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Daveg
NT & VTS Council member
I believe I am perfect, but others may differ in opinion?
Posts: 1,549
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Post by Daveg on Nov 2, 2011 8:50:57 GMT
How can one reach a reasonable conclusions and use it as a standard across the range of vehicles being tested daily? I stand in front of the vehicle and assess the colour of light emitted, I look and I see two different colours, one is amber and the other is the reflection which appears to be white? So how do I conclude the issue during my test routine and still do everything in a reasonble time? Simple, if its not pure white, or a very large portion of light emitted is white, then I make a note of the regulation on my VT40, (1.5A.1d) offside front and say nearside front, then when I do my interior inspection, I switch on the lamps and look at the reflection of colour bouncing back at me from the mirrors. When the bulbs are deteriorated, the light reflected back through the mirrors will be white, then I fail them. So what your saying is you would only fail them based on what you see in the mirrors" In the first part of my assessement I do assess the colour, flash rate, condition, security etc on my initial walk round the vehicle after the pre-checks when the test has started, initially this is where I assess the colour, then when sat in the driving seat and operating all lamps etc I use the mirrors for a second look, I already know by this time if the colour is incorrect, so the mirrors just give me a second look and I make my final decision. My understanding is that the colour is incorrect when amber = white. I have also read threads in the past on here where other forum members have advised that VOSA's VE's have also given the opinion that the colour should be white when failing. Please don't make a meal out of what I have just said, thank you Dave
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Post by baz657 on Nov 2, 2011 10:20:56 GMT
My understanding is that the colour is incorrect when amber = white. Dave Zero votes and counting for white. The majority are still of a view that almost white with a hint of amber is enough to fail. Edited to add.... Even though I started this thread over six years ago I'd never voted. I went with the majority which I've always used as the fail criteria and advise on half and half.
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keith
Nominated Tester
VTS SM & QC
Posts: 46
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Post by keith on Nov 2, 2011 13:48:22 GMT
baz657 I think your wrong and I agree the majority says a little yellow would fail but in my experience as class 1,2,4,5,7 and mot consulting with various VE's on site with clients the golden rule is if it has yellow in it then P&A if it is white then fail. I know this is unpopular but these are the rules that we must abide by. I also understand that the bulb may well be white within a month or so so I can see the logic in failing nearly white but the test is still "at the time of the test" so please guys becareful when failing indicators, it could bit you in the bum with a vt17
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Post by baz657 on Nov 2, 2011 14:53:16 GMT
If that's the case Keith then I think VOSA have to re-define their wording for incorrect colour on the VT30. They can't just have "indicator shows white light" as a RfR because any other colour (red for example?) would then pass.
I was following a car the other night and the indicators were almost blindingly bright even though there was the barest hint of amber.
I'll bring this up at the next VTS council meeting later this month.
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