Steven
Nominated Tester
Posts: 131
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Post by Steven on Aug 20, 2005 11:50:59 GMT
Have you ever had to issue a pass certificate for a vehice that in your opinion is too dangerous to drive on the road ? ie there is a dangerous fault with the vehicle on a non-testable item...
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wingnut
Nominated Tester
Posts: 186
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Post by wingnut on Sept 11, 2005 17:36:57 GMT
We are all probably passing vehicles that are in a dangerous state,how can that be? Brakes [the fluid] is the problem in my opion. If a car comes in for a Mot and it is not a regular customer how do we know if the brake fluid has been not been changed every two years [as recomended] I have heard of bad accidents with brakes failing on heavy brakeing [pedal to the floor] only to be found ok on checking the brakeing system when cooled down. As we know DOT absorbs water so it should be a requirement of testing within the Mot. I wonder if insurance companys check the fluid after unexplained accidents, fatalitys. Admin note: I have copied this post to the thread What would you like to see included in an MOT test ?
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VT40
VTS Site Manager
Site Manager/Tester
Posts: 2
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Post by VT40 on Feb 27, 2009 16:04:40 GMT
Re: dangerous pass
Not that long ago I tested a Mazda with a front brake back plate so badly corroded I'm sure it was attached to the strut/hub assembly by force of habit ! This componant was flopping around in the breeze and pretty soon it would have fallen off completely catching the wheel then attacking the brake hose as it spun round with horrible consequences.
I spent an age looking through RfR's and finally rang our local VOSA office who confirmed that it was a case of pass and advise. I was far from happy when I signed the VT20 and the issue of an Advisory Notice did little to calm me.
If you take a look at section 5 page 23, of VOSA's Categorisation of Defects, such a componant could be described as "any brake componant", with its condition "failed or failure imminent" applying. If that were the case a VE may well issue an immediate prohibition notice.
What does anyone else think ?
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keith
Nominated Tester
VTS SM & QC
Posts: 46
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Post by keith on Jul 23, 2009 20:06:59 GMT
alot of the time we have no choice but to pass and advise...but... heres the catch - who said we can't place a danger marker on an advisory? - try it as I have done this before now - also we are not allowed to remove items to test vehicle like the tops of brake resivoirs so again pass and advise....you can pass a car but place a danger marker on an advisory - hope this helps
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Post by jonesy1975 on Jul 27, 2009 20:51:32 GMT
I have advised and marked dangerous a few times , one being a motorhome with badly cracked tyres , the cracks are not deep enough to reach ply or cords but in my opinion the tyres are dangerous , they are advised as such .
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Daveg
NT & VTS Council member
I believe I am perfect, but others may differ in opinion?
Posts: 1,549
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Post by Daveg on Jul 27, 2009 22:42:30 GMT
Re: dangerous pass Not that long ago I tested a Mazda with a front brake back plate so badly corroded I'm sure it was attached to the strut/hub assembly by force of habit ! This componant was flopping around in the breeze and pretty soon it would have fallen off completely catching the wheel then attacking the brake hose as it spun round with horrible consequences. I spent an age looking through RfR's and finally rang our local VOSA office who confirmed that it was a case of pass and advise. I was far from happy when I signed the VT20 and the issue of an Advisory Notice did little to calm me. If you take a look at section 5 page 23, of VOSA's Categorisation of Defects, such a componant could be described as "any brake componant", with its condition "failed or failure imminent" applying. If that were the case a VE may well issue an immediate prohibition notice. What does anyone else think ? The Categorisation of defects is what the VE's use during road side inspections, this manual is a guide for them like the testers manual is for us. Let's look at what you said above, ie "Brake Back Plate". The testers manual does cover these items, see page 01 section 3.5 RFR 1i, which says "Presence and security" of Brake Back Plates. I think the misunderstanding here is that the front brake discs type covers are not "Brake Back Plates", they are "Dust Covers", the difference is that with brake back plates, the braking torque is transmitted through them, whereas with Dust Covers, the brake torque has no influence on them. The Road Traffic Act 1988 section 45 as amended implies the standards a vehicle must meet to be used on the road. The Mot test is designed to show the minimum road safety standard for vehicle components which could have a detriment to road safety. Sometimes an mot tester will see items on a vehicle which in his personnel opinion should fail an mot test, he may also consider that defect dangerous. While the decision taken by the tester is a subjective decision based on the individuals experience, there are other bodies outside VOSA like accident investigators, collision investigators, police vehicle examiners, consultants, forensics etc who also look at evidence collected from road traffic accidents and make out reports, these reports are looked at to make changes in legislation, which brings about changes in the mot scheme periodically. Going back to the Road Traffic Act, any person who drives a vehicle on the road must comply with the law, but few understand it and so the standards have seriously reduced. When a commercial garage carries out a routine service on behalf of a customer, what actually does a garage do, whatever that service consists of, would that vehicle then comply with the Road Traffic Act? There are many problems, vehicles and people who repair vehicles, who have differrent ideas as to what or what should not be done as a part of a service, which the IMI are trying to address with the ATA Accreditation. Just recently the Trade press has again highlighted that the Trade are going to have to be licenced. Now if you asked mechanics what they thought about this, some would say it's not for them, they are happy as they are, why, probably because people don't like big brother, but it is very real and its here and its not going to go away. There is a feedback system for mot testers to advice VOSA of any defects they find and feel that they should be included in the mot test, but before anyone does, bare in mind that what you are not happy with, and in your own opinion you feel it should be a testable item, VOSA may not because there is insufficient evidence to cause concern, and in your example they would probably say that it should be picked up and changed at the routine service interval. One must also appreciate the costs involved in updating legislation, and also the cost of the mot test to the customer, which has been agreed by the trade bodies with the department for transport.
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Post by Admin on Jul 27, 2009 23:40:09 GMT
Let's look at what you said above, ie "Brake Back Plate". The testers manual does cover these items, see page 01 section 3.5 RFR 1i, which says "Presence and security" of Brake Back Plates. 3.5.1.i is for presence and security of (brake back plate, wheel cylinder & caliper) securing devices - not the actual component itself The RfR: a brake back plate, wheel cylinder or caliper securing device loose, missing or excessively deteriorated
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Daveg
NT & VTS Council member
I believe I am perfect, but others may differ in opinion?
Posts: 1,549
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Post by Daveg on Jul 28, 2009 7:03:42 GMT
Let's look at what you said above, ie "Brake Back Plate". The testers manual does cover these items, see page 01 section 3.5 RFR 1i, which says "Presence and security" of Brake Back Plates. 3.5.1.i is for presence and security of (brake back plate, wheel cylinder & caliper) securing devices - not the actual component itself The RfR: a brake back plate, wheel cylinder or caliper securing device loose, missing or excessively deteriorated Not actually sure what you mean there Admin? "Presence and security". I thought that meant, is it there, ie fitted, yes you can see it? "security" can you touch it, yes its there, is it securely fitted? Yes its not loose or hanging off? And it also says "excessively deteriorated", this I believe is saying that "Any" corrosion present must be "Significant" before a fail is issued. Not sure where you are going with that one Admin?
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Post by mountains on Jul 28, 2009 11:59:27 GMT
we had a 52 plate jeep in today pedal travel excessive and pedal creeping but on the rollers brakes were good. i smelled the b/fluid it was dark brown and stank. my mentor failed it on te travel amongst other things
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graham
Nominated Tester
Posts: 331
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Post by graham on Jul 28, 2009 12:15:39 GMT
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Post by mountains on Jul 28, 2009 16:40:29 GMT
diesel but it sank to the floor, if pumped it regained a bit but after a few seconds sank again. thanks for the link
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graham
Nominated Tester
Posts: 331
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Post by graham on Jul 28, 2009 17:05:07 GMT
Hmmmm If a pedal creeps on a diesel you must try it without the engine running with vac depleted (as per my link) else you may fail it, your customer spends hundreds of pounds without any improvement. Not easy to talk your way out of that....
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Daveg
NT & VTS Council member
I believe I am perfect, but others may differ in opinion?
Posts: 1,549
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Post by Daveg on Jul 28, 2009 18:08:54 GMT
I have noticed this on many diesels, but when holding pressure on the pedal and letting it creep if no problem present, it will stop creeping before the end of the working stroke.
Also had a problem with a Transit diesel where the brake pedal felt normal during the test, but when the rear brakes were tested, the pedal sank to the end of the working travel, I then pumped up the pedal again and tried a roller test and the same happened, the pedal sank. I knew there were no visual leaks and the brake back plates looked dry, and when in the test bay checking servo etc I hadn't found a problem. I suspected the master cylinder, but I said well if I want to issue a VT30, what reason could I give?
The only area I could point the finger at on the rollers was the rear service brake rate of increase and decrease not about the same, which was significantly indifferent. But then I asked myself, would it be justified to fail the service brake pedal for no reserve when this problem only occurs during the roller brake test?
What do you guys think?
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Post by jonesy1975 on Jul 28, 2009 18:19:31 GMT
there is an rfr for pedal creeps when held under pressure , now if that is what it is doing i would fail it as such , as far as i am concerned i would be safe enough to use this reason & cannot see why anyone (apart from vehicle presenter) would want to argue the point.
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Daveg
NT & VTS Council member
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Posts: 1,549
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Post by Daveg on Jul 28, 2009 19:47:27 GMT
there is an rfr for pedal creeps when held under pressure , now if that is what it is doing i would fail it as such , as far as i am concerned i would be safe enough to use this reason & cannot see why anyone (apart from vehicle presenter) would want to argue the point. When I experienced this problem, which was on a Transit diesel, I did contact VOSA who advised me to "Pass and Advise" the defect? Now although I could not spend forever on the phone to them, I had to try to understand how they were thinking in relation to the problem I gave them, this I concluded by using the testers manual. Hydraulic systems including servo assisted in the manual tells us to fully depress the pedal twice, first slowly and then rapidly each time to a point where sustained pressure can be held, the manual then says check for creep and sponginess. The manual then goes on to say with a servo fitted, with the engine off, totally deplete the stored vacuum by repeatedly applying the service brake. Fully apply the brake and hold at constant pressure, start the engine and note whether the pedal can be felt to travel further. Now carrying out the above method of inspection in my example did not show up a problem, but on the rolling road the pedal did indeed travel to the end of its working travel. Now I can understand how VOSA was thinking because there is no requirement during the roller brake test to check the pedal travel, therefore this is why I relied on the results of the roller brake test to issue a VT30 document. Had I failed the vehicle for the service brake pedal working travel reaching the floor, as the manual says, then if an appeal had been carried out because the customer was in disagreement, then during that part of the test to check pedal creep and sponginess, if at the time of test of the vehicle examiner it had proved ok, then I would have lost the appeal, and the rate of increase and decrease of the rear service brakes which was significantly indifferent, then the VE would have picked that up as a defect I missed and isued points accordingly? It cannot be stressed enough how one needs to follow the manual guidlines and sometimes, just let the test equipment make the decision for you based on the readings being observed.
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graham
Nominated Tester
Posts: 331
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Post by graham on Jul 28, 2009 20:05:18 GMT
Always remember on the rolling road you have no feel of braking. You just sit there pressing down hard on the pedal. The pedal may feel bad and long but drive it on the road and anything but the slightest pressure may nearly put your head through the windscreen.
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Daveg
NT & VTS Council member
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Post by Daveg on Jul 28, 2009 20:56:58 GMT
While anything is possible outside the test bay, whatever does happen cannot be considered as a part of the test routine. A tester may carry out a road test but is not part of the test, and the tester must decide as to whether that road test would be safe to do?
Having completed the test, and based on the results of that test, the road test would be strickly off limits and the VT30 marked as dangerous to drive.
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graham
Nominated Tester
Posts: 331
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Post by graham on Jul 29, 2009 16:57:42 GMT
I think you have mis read my post. I was not advocating taking vehicles on the road as part of the test procedure (excepting 4x4 with a Tapley) but more of an observation that on the RR you get no feel of retardation.
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Daveg
NT & VTS Council member
I believe I am perfect, but others may differ in opinion?
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Post by Daveg on Jul 29, 2009 18:44:34 GMT
I understand there what you are saying Graham, no problems there, but with a 4 x 4 using a decelerometer I would only experience such a problem on the road and would have had no prior warning.
It is worth just a mention here now you brought the decelerometer into the discussion, that the decelerometer is checking the vehicles retardation and the rolling road is checking the brakes retardation. If you carry out a brake test using your rolling road and record the brake efficiency, then do a decelerometer test, compare your readings which will on every occasion be "different". It is an equivalent brake test but some maths is involved to adjust the vehicle specification to show brake results to be the same.
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Post by bigmike42 on Jul 30, 2009 20:59:31 GMT
i have come across this on a few cars the brake pedal will travel further on the rollers all these cars are then road tested and i have never felt the need to fail one of them after this .
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