nitros44
Nominated Tester
esto es un negocio serio
Posts: 741
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Post by nitros44 on Feb 26, 2012 21:01:58 GMT
Because it relates to EMISSION CONTROL EQUIPMENT rather then the emissions result itself. And the MOT is all about a vehicle meeting a minimum standard for use on the road? The minimum standard should be meeting the BET limits -- not making sure the CAT is present. As far as the Minimum requirement goes "a missing cat is the minimum"at this present time,this is the present standard VOSA have applied for now. They could have applied the following reasons for rejections,, A CAT CONVERTER DEFECTIVE and CAT CONVERTER MODIFIED
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NT
Nominated Tester
Posts: 139
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Post by NT on Feb 26, 2012 22:36:54 GMT
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Post by baz657 on Feb 27, 2012 10:47:56 GMT
The way we used to test was if a cat was missing but the vehicle passed the emissions test it was a pass/advise. Seems sensible and no complaints here (or from VOSA) on that. Then the EU got involved and said that if a cat is missing where it was fitted from new and the vehicle was first used at a time when it matters, irrespective of the emission test result, it fails the test and we now have to test to that standard. Sensible? No, but the EU have rarely been known for their sensible thinking and us "discussing" it wont make them change the ruling. The method of trying to get the EU to change it's mind is to send a delegation. I wonder if Dave is free for the next couple of years ;D
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Tom
Nominated Tester
Posts: 227
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Post by Tom on Feb 27, 2012 20:41:50 GMT
Are all the items in the EU directive 2010/48 to be included in our MOT test ? Or is it a case of pick and choose?
Why aren't we testing reversing lights or demisting systems - but can fail missing CATs even if emissions are within limits?
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Daveg
NT & VTS Council member
I believe I am perfect, but others may differ in opinion?
Posts: 1,549
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Post by Daveg on Feb 28, 2012 18:55:47 GMT
The way we used to test was if a cat was missing but the vehicle passed the emissions test it was a pass/advise. Seems sensible and no complaints here (or from VOSA) on that. Then the EU got involved and said that if a cat is missing where it was fitted from new and the vehicle was first used at a time when it matters, irrespective of the emission test result, it fails the test and we now have to test to that standard. Sensible? No, but the EU have rarely been known for their sensible thinking and us "discussing" it wont make them change the ruling. The method of trying to get the EU to change it's mind is to send a delegation. I wonder if Dave is free for the next couple of years ;DBaz , in relation to the higlighted red section above lol , I won't ask, I'll just send them an order , something like "Do as I tell you", and I am fully confident that they will listen and act on the order lol ;D Dave
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Daveg
NT & VTS Council member
I believe I am perfect, but others may differ in opinion?
Posts: 1,549
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Post by Daveg on Feb 28, 2012 22:42:25 GMT
We have all had a long debate on this subject now, but in section 7 method of inspection 3 specifically says; On vehicles that qualify for a full cat emissions test, check the presence of the catalyst converterSo in section 7.3c, the BET test, is I think a fast pass route where a fast idle test, cat stabilisation period and idle test take place and if emissions limits are within the tolerance the BET passes at that point. There is no mention of having to use emissions data book for cat codes, engine codes, vin numbers etc when BET testing only if BET requirement is not met, where we are advised to continue on to a full cat test. I don't think the issue here is clear cut, the very fact above that says Qualify for a FULL CAT EMISSIONS TEST is the not same as BET TEST, which I believe is a fast pass route. Dave
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Post by baz657 on Feb 29, 2012 13:42:23 GMT
I asked the specific question in the open question session at a seminar the other night.
The answer was yes.
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hayden
Nominated Tester
VTS AEDM, SM & QC
Posts: 828
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Post by hayden on Feb 29, 2012 18:51:06 GMT
a missing cat where there should be one is a fail in it's own right, so have to agree with the seminar answer as in my opinion that is what the manual tells us to do.
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wingnut
Nominated Tester
Posts: 186
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Post by wingnut on Feb 29, 2012 19:24:46 GMT
If the main cat is missing but a pre cat is fitted and the car passes the BET, how do we know if a main cat was fitted as standard from new?
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Tom
Nominated Tester
Posts: 227
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Post by Tom on Feb 29, 2012 20:04:51 GMT
a missing cat where there should be one is a fail in it's own right, so have to agree with the seminar answer as in my opinion that is what the manual tells us to do. Not quite. The manual will only fail missing CATs on vehicles that qualify for a Full Cat emissions test.
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Daveg
NT & VTS Council member
I believe I am perfect, but others may differ in opinion?
Posts: 1,549
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Post by Daveg on Feb 29, 2012 21:45:30 GMT
a missing cat where there should be one is a fail in it's own right, so have to agree with the seminar answer as in my opinion that is what the manual tells us to do. Not quite. The manual will only fail missing CATs on vehicles that qualify for a Full Cat emissions test. Thank you Tom, exactly my point. It says qualify for a full cat test this part is important and some vosa staff may be missing the point or not read it? Dave
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wingnut
Nominated Tester
Posts: 186
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Post by wingnut on Mar 1, 2012 8:49:18 GMT
[qualify for a full cat test]
Never, it should be "qualify for a full cat CHECK" Rember we are checking the emissions to the minimum VOSA set requirerments.
GHU if the VOSA staff are not consistant let alone for us to become self regulatory.
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Daveg
NT & VTS Council member
I believe I am perfect, but others may differ in opinion?
Posts: 1,549
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Post by Daveg on Mar 1, 2012 18:30:51 GMT
Although I don't wish to burst your bubble lol , I think VOSA worded it correctly Check means; A test to ensure accuracy or progress. There are many other meanings to this word also, but; Test means; A chemical reaction or physical procedure for testing the composition or other quantities of a substance. As we are specifically looking at chemical reactions to ensure the cat works by measuring the output from what we put in, I do feel they got it right. Dave
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Post by offroad on Mar 4, 2012 15:08:23 GMT
so does that mean if i poped a car quickly on my 4gas tester to have a quick idea what the 4 gas read outs were at say 4000rpm it would be classed as a full cat test. i dont think so myself.
i think " if " the information. the method of inspection and the rfr`s are identical then its fair to presume its the same test.
if they are not the same. then it is not the same.
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Daveg
NT & VTS Council member
I believe I am perfect, but others may differ in opinion?
Posts: 1,549
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Post by Daveg on Mar 4, 2012 15:22:06 GMT
Some people might be getting confused about what the cat is designed to do and what they are measuring at the tail pipe, which is not the same thing entiry Dave
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Post by aylesburyjock on Mar 4, 2012 16:51:47 GMT
Offroad, your example isn't even concerning any part of an MOT. This thread is now getting a bit repetitive, the disagreement being whether or not you consider the BET a full cat test or not. I'm not going to bother posting my opinion, because we already have enough on both sides and one more won't make any difference. So, has anyone any Ideas on how to clarify the issue. I won't bother to suggest asking VOSA because I seem to recall that was done, but that does'nt seem to be convincing anybody.We seem to be just arguing around their reply, and pretty much ignoring it. Any other ideas?
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Post by aylesburyjock on Mar 4, 2012 17:01:18 GMT
Only kidding, I can't not give my opinion. I think you are splitting the test in the wrong place, in my opinion. The split is not between a BET and a cat test, but between a non-cat test and a cat test. Just my opinion of course, but it does seem blindingly obvious to me. The clue is in the name. ;D
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phaetonott
Nominated Tester
I may not be right but at least I am trying!
Posts: 376
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Post by phaetonott on Mar 4, 2012 19:35:55 GMT
Jock's right!
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Stealth
Full Member
God made me do it !!
Posts: 79
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Post by Stealth on Mar 7, 2012 14:57:42 GMT
Only kidding, I can't not give my opinion. I think you are splitting the test in the wrong place, in my opinion. The split is not between a BET and a cat test, but between a non-cat test and a cat test. Just my opinion of course, but it does seem blindingly obvious to me. The clue is in the name. ;D The definitive answer being given at this year's seminars is to follow the flow charts in the Manual IGNORING the BET test - it's either a cat test or a non cat test. The BET test was added post cat testing as a means of simplifying the emissions test on the basis that most cat equipped cars - if warm enough- will pass the BET test to default limits without the need to go to a full cat cycle
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nitros44
Nominated Tester
esto es un negocio serio
Posts: 741
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Post by nitros44 on Mar 8, 2012 0:00:50 GMT
Only kidding, I can't not give my opinion. I think you are splitting the test in the wrong place, in my opinion. The split is not between a BET and a cat test, but between a non-cat test and a cat test. Just my opinion of course, but it does seem blindingly obvious to me. The clue is in the name. ;D ******************************** ******************************** The limits for a BET TEST are not the same as default limits from 1 Aug 1992 to 31 Aug 2002 as far as IDLE CO"s are concerned as this limit is slightly higher Refresher,lol The bet test uses the most common (generic) limits for a cat test . it is not referred to as a cat test as its a stand alone version created to speed up emission testing and yes it is a cat test as due to the cat stabilization process contained within it . It has been said on this thread that some members have been attending seminars where its been said that the vehicle has to fail the bet test first for a NT to fail the vehicle. Having sat through 2 vosa seminars and consulting with other testers in the area it appears that no one and myself has heard a presenter state that passing the bet test negates the requirement for a CAT fitted as standard,this is incorrect. If in the situation and faced with a vehicle that has the cat missing,all that is required is to follow the flow charts PAGES 9 AND 10 SECTION 7.3; and if the flow charts leads to a box that says cat in it ; then its qualified;then at that point it has failed,if following the flow charts and it says non cat then it has not qualified, ;D Ignoring ANY emission result outcome. Its very important that the flow charts are carefully followed ;D ;D ;D
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