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Post by aylesburyjock on Feb 18, 2012 15:29:36 GMT
Hate to be the one to break the news to you, Dave but testing to mimum standard was thrown out when europe poked it's nose in in several different areas of the test, so that reminder no longer valid. If I'm not mistaken, this is one of them.
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Daveg
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Post by Daveg on Feb 18, 2012 15:32:36 GMT
You can't be right there Jock, simply because the Euro limit is the BET at 0.20%, and VOSA have then a full cat test at 0.30%, so Euro are not the be all and end all, we still have a minimum standard by those two different limits above alone? Dave
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Post by aylesburyjock on Feb 18, 2012 15:39:25 GMT
I meant the fact that the vehicle can fail simply for having no catalytic converter fitted regardless of emission test results is one of theirs not ours, and also not minimum standard. I believe it was at my managers course last year that I was warned this was coming in, and that it was not vosa's idea. Also this wasn't actually what I was thinking of when I said about minimum standards being scrapped. Have a think about it and I'm sure you can come up with a few items yourself.
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phaetonott
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Post by phaetonott on Feb 18, 2012 21:37:30 GMT
if a car can produce emissions clean enough to pass a BET without a cat, then common sense says it should be allowed to pass the MOT. However, common sense and VOSA? I'll wait to see what the reply to the email is.
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nitros44
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Post by nitros44 on Feb 18, 2012 22:13:34 GMT
If there 2 things i have lernt with working with VOSA are ; 1/ Cover your behind, 2/Make the mot scheme as easy as possible for myself. Sometimes you have to get infomation in writing to back up any agument when or if any issue arises. I thought i lost this email from VOSA which clearly states no matter if the vehicle passes the BET TEST OR FULL CAT TEST if the cat is found missing its a fail. Attachments:
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Daveg
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Post by Daveg on Feb 18, 2012 22:30:38 GMT
This could be another one difficult to get a definitive answer on based on my understanding from VOSA. I have seen this before many moons ago with Trikes and number plates, on department of VOSA were adament that plates should be fitted and another branch of VOSA said they did not require a front plate because no body was fitted. This difference in VOSA back then took quite some time to sort out and standardise so that ALL people in VOSA were singing from the same Hymm sheet , don't hold your breath it may take a while Dave
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nitros44
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Post by nitros44 on Feb 19, 2012 23:35:09 GMT
If it's petrol and if it requires any cat test (BET or not) it needs a cat - end of. If it passes a BET test or full cat test and no cat is fitted where one is required it fails - end of. The only time it wont will be if after carring out a BET test that fails you cannot find an exact match in the emissions data base. So for example, if you would have gone through the flow chart and finally got to the stage where you only needed a basic idle test (3.5 CO, 1200 HC's) no cat is required. It ain't rocket science guys and no need to read into it any way that suits you. Baz,i am pleased someone else can agree on this,but i do think that the information column needs to be readdressed to make it more clear to people and avoid confusion,there is one thing i would like to pick up from your post and that's the issue of the flow charts when a cat is missing. Its not going to be a common arises where testers find catalytic converters missing,but up to now we have failed 2 as we get a few modified cars and young racers etc. I had a vehicle which failed the cat test and flow charts led to non cat test which it failed and had no cat fitted only a straight though pipe,i could not fail the vehicle anyway as it ended up a non cat test. If the vehicle had passed the cat test i would have had to fail it on cat missing,if you see what i mean, We have since repaired the vehicle and fitted a new catalytic converter which has rectified the emissions fault. SITUATION INVOLVING FLOW CHARTS Now my point on a situation like this is if the presenter went away elsewhere for repair and the catalytic converter was never replaced and the vehicle came back for re test and the emissions tested and passed,(assuming that a cat test is carried out ) on the vehicle would still fail on its cat missing now. Or would the emissions test be done as last test =NON CAT TEST I know that the vast majority of petrol fueled vehicles will fail the cat emissions test if the cat converter is defective or missing,and the presenter will have no choice but to replace the cat converter,but the scenario mentioned where the vehicle fails emissions and no cat fitted,vehicle returns for re test and it passed emissions but cat still missing can happen. I suppose a strong advisory and explanation is given regarding the implications on situations like this is all we can do to ensure the presenter understands.
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Daveg
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Post by Daveg on Feb 20, 2012 21:29:48 GMT
Nitros I think what you wrote here still makes good reading; I had a vehicle which failed the cat test and flow charts led to non cat test which it failed and had no cat fitted only a straight though pipe,i could not fail the vehicle anyway as it ended up a non cat test.Time has moved on now since the days when some early vehicles which had CATS fitted, but because an exact match was not found or was not available, back in the day VOSA advised that a cat test should on some vehicles not be carried out, even with a cat fitted, in some circumstances? Now although you have produced a copy of a letter from VOSA regarding this issue, it is still unclear to me, because it seems that again like in the old days one department of VOSA is saying that IF the BET limits are met and passed, no CAT test is required, and other departments are saying differently, and although in most cases the cat is required to pass the test, if a vehicle is presented on LPG, then the cat is not required fitted or not, so just because the manual says a cat missing is a fail, if I elected to run my vehicle on LPG all the time and then was faced with a bill for a few hundred pounds or more for something my vehicle does not legally require anymore, because of my LPG conversion, then I would want a definitive answer from VOSA in writing stating all facts and reasons why I require one, and why different VOSA departments are talking from different hymm sheets? I would like a definitive answer and is something I will be bringing up at the next Council Meeting. Dave
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Post by spotty on Feb 21, 2012 21:14:27 GMT
If a BET is the same as a full cat test why do they make a clear differentiation between them in the manual? The MOI is: ON VEHICLES THAT QUALIFY FOR A FULL CAT EMISSIONS TEST CHECK THE PRESENCE OF A CAT CONVERTER. Which according to the other interpretation in this topic should be read as: ON VEHICLES THAT QUALIFY FOR A FULL CAT EMISSIONS OR BET TEST CHECK THE PRESENCE OF A CAT CONVERTER. Looking at that e-mail from VOSA in the above post, the RFR in it refers to emissions equipment fitted as standard, which is not the RFR in the current manual. This leads me to believe that at the time of writing that reply that the wording in the manual had not been finalised. In a previous post in this topic: I tested a Ford Escort 1st used 30 Aug 1995 1800 cc;; it failed the bet test and due to not being able to find the information needed due to fading and corrosion ;i was not able to find an exact match;the flow chart directed me to carry out a non cat test which it still failed anyway. On inspecting the exhaust it revealed that the cat had been cut out and replaced with a straight piece of pipe. Because the emissions test ended up a non cat test i could not fail the vehicle on a cat missing because it did not qualify for a cat test in the end. I've just had a look at the flow chart and have come to the conclusion that this car would qualify for a cat test. The cut off is 31 July 1995 for a non cat test.
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nitros44
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Post by nitros44 on Feb 21, 2012 21:40:22 GMT
The month is incorrect,it should read 30th July not Aug. My mistake. Rather then use the wording of full cat test which in my opinion is inappropriate;it would be better wording it as advanced emissions test
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Post by aylesburyjock on Feb 22, 2012 1:30:21 GMT
LPG fueled vehicles don't come into it Dave. Just muddying the water again?
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Daveg
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Post by Daveg on Feb 22, 2012 11:46:27 GMT
No Jock I am not muddying the water lol , the book does not give a definitive answer to the question raised! The book also says; Early catalyst equipped vehicles may not require a ‘CAT’ test. The flowcharts and notes must be carefully followed. So a cat missing is not an automatic fail. LPG vehicles presented for a test running on LPG tested correctly not fitted with a CAT then, registered say within the last two years, what test result you going to make if the metered test is a pass! (Is a CAT missing here a fail or not)! Remember it's a CAT equipped vehicle from the factory running on LPG. This is how I read the instructions. All vehicles must go through the BET Test, unless exempt, i.e. LPG. The BET Limits are met, this equals a PASS. No futher emissions test required. BET Limits NOT MET = extended FULL CAT TEST to the correct limits as applied from the flow charts. If after applying the correct flow chart and limits the emissions have not been met, then the vehicle fails for emissions metered results and IF no cat fitted, the cat missing. If the cat is present, then it fails for emissions metered results only. If VOSA want the cat failing for not being fitted to a vehicle that meets the limits of the BET, which is a PASS, then VOSA need to explain why a vehicle presented on LPG of testable age for a CAT emissions test would fail for a CAT missing IF running on LPG when tested? Or Are you going to pass and advise a CAT missing on a vehicle running on LPG of testable age for a CAT equipped vehicle? Dave
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nitros44
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Post by nitros44 on Feb 22, 2012 23:11:13 GMT
EXAMPLE 1 Jaguar 2.5cc petrol 2006 V6 presented for test.(lpg conversion fitted) I establish that its running on LPG and both cat converters are present as they are fitted as standard I carry out a NON-CAT TEST as its not petrol driven and does not require a CAT TEST,the vehicle passes the NON-CAT test so the emissions test has ended. EXAMPLE 2Another Jaguar 2.5cc petrol 2006 V6 presented for test.(lpg conversion fitted) I establish that its running on LPG and both cat converters have been removed but were fitted as standard. Due to it being presented running on LPG i carry out a NON-CAT test,which it passes,the emissions test has ended,all that remains for me to do is to make an advisory for the cat converters missing as i cant fail the cat converters missing due to it not qualifying for any form of CAT TEST. END CATALYTIC CONVERTERS vs METERED EMISSIONS RESULT(petrol) The EU directive 2010/48 sets out certain testing requirements that we GB must conform with. REG 8.2.11 of the directive requires us as testers/examiners to visual inspection of the exhaust emissions control equipment and has a corresponding failure reason which says in short "cat missing were fitted as standard by manufacturer". Now the way i read in to this and what it says in the manual "if a vehicle qualifies for a full cat test "bearing in mind that in my opinion the BET TEST is still a FULL CAT TEST only the warm up process of the cat has already taken place etc and also what i have said that pass or fail the metered emission result does not matter,if its in the scenario and it needs a cat,if its not there it will fail and in most cases the cat missing is a fail in its own right. My understanding why the metered result of a pass emissions result is disregarded is due to a major factor; A catalytic converter is fitted by the manufactures as part of the emissions control equipment which we know. This enables a vehicle to meet emission requirements THROUGHOUT ALL ENGINE RUNNING CONDITIONS;not just during an emissions test of idle and fast idle speeds. Not only that, but the directive does not make any allowance for vehicles having the cat missing if its subject to a cat test and it passes the emissions test. To me that just reinforces what is explained in the email by VOSA in a previous post.
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Post by aylesburyjock on Feb 22, 2012 23:24:13 GMT
If you remember, the failure for a cat missing when fitted as standard only applies to vehicles requiring a cat test. If the vehicle is running on LPG that is not the case. It's a non cat test, therefore it doesn't matter if a cat is missing or not, so yes, I would pass and advise.
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Daveg
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Post by Daveg on Feb 22, 2012 23:44:59 GMT
But the confusion seems to be whether a BET test is a full cat test or not? The manual does not give a reason for rejection for a vehicle which does not meet the requirements of the BET, but says the test continues to a FULL CAT TEST, so to me as the flow charts state, if the emissions are met at the end of the BET Test, then the vehicle has passed, so no continuation to a FULL CAT TEST is required. However, the only addition to the program seems to be that the second fast idle test is extended for up to three minutes to ensure the cat is lit, so both BET and CAT Test are the same reading the manual, so it is still a bit confusing why VOSA's trainer is saying that a CAT is not required if the BET limits are met, but the manual says a cat missing is a fail for a full cat test? I think they really do need to clarify the issue what they mean to put this topic to bed once and for all! Dave
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nitros44
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Post by nitros44 on Feb 23, 2012 1:57:42 GMT
Having some spare time today i hooked up the EGA to my car which was at operating temp and selected FULL CAT TEST ;once i fed the information in to the computer the program proceeded to do its business which when it finished was the same routine as a BET TEST.
The basic emissions test is applied to all petrol fueled vehicles first used 1st Aug 1992.Despite its name this test is primarily aimed at identifying and assessing emissions from vehicles with advance emissions control systems such as 3 way catalytic converters.
The bet test uses EC minimum in service emission limits for modern vehicles. For vehicles subject to a bet test procedure the emissions are assessed during two separate tests,fast idle and normal idle.
The primary reason for the introduction of these tests is to ensure that the vehicle is tested accurately.
Were these bet test limits are not met 2 things will happen;
1/A check will be made to identify vehicles without catalytic converters which should only have to meet non-cat emissions test,
2/If the vehicle does not fall into the above category then the analyzer will automatically schedule an extended emissions test for catalytic converter equipped vehicles.
In other words the bet test assumes that the vehicle is at operating temp,if not it extends itself to allow warm-up and;
It sough ts out what vehicles require non-cat test ;and
sough ts vehicles that require manufacturer declared emission limits
Most of this post contains info from the in service emissions booklet which makes no reference to a FULL CAT TEST i think someone at VOSA just made that one up
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Post by baz657 on Feb 23, 2012 14:27:09 GMT
But the confusion seems to be whether a BET test is a full cat test or not? The manual does not give a reason for rejection for a vehicle which does not meet the requirements of the BET, but says the test continues to a FULL CAT TEST, so to me as the flow charts state, if the emissions are met at the end of the BET Test, then the vehicle has passed, so no continuation to a FULL CAT TEST is required. However, the only addition to the program seems to be that the second fast idle test is extended for up to three minutes to ensure the cat is lit, so both BET and CAT Test are the same reading the manual, so it is still a bit confusing why VOSA's trainer is saying that a CAT is not required if the BET limits are met, but the manual says a cat missing is a fail for a full cat test? I think they really do need to clarify the issue what they mean to put this topic to bed once and for all! Dave Dave Can't you get it round your head that the BET test is still a full cat test? Any petrol (forget LPG, diesel, chip oil, electric, hot air, etc etc) vehicle that passes a BET test will meet the current minimum/lowest requirements on emissions for any petrol driven vehicle of testable age and therefore we don't have to go down the long winded and time wasting route of finding and entering vehicle specific information. Just out of interest, how many BET tests have been carried out by anyone have passed with no cat fitted? All this discussion over something that probably will never happen........
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Daveg
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Post by Daveg on Feb 23, 2012 19:20:08 GMT
But the confusion seems to be whether a BET test is a full cat test or not? The manual does not give a reason for rejection for a vehicle which does not meet the requirements of the BET, but says the test continues to a FULL CAT TEST, so to me as the flow charts state, if the emissions are met at the end of the BET Test, then the vehicle has passed, so no continuation to a FULL CAT TEST is required. However, the only addition to the program seems to be that the second fast idle test is extended for up to three minutes to ensure the cat is lit, so both BET and CAT Test are the same reading the manual, so it is still a bit confusing why VOSA's trainer is saying that a CAT is not required if the BET limits are met, but the manual says a cat missing is a fail for a full cat test? I think they really do need to clarify the issue what they mean to put this topic to bed once and for all! Dave Dave Can't you get it round your head that the BET test is still a full cat test? Any petrol (forget LPG, diesel, chip oil, electric, hot air, etc etc) vehicle that passes a BET test will meet the current minimum/lowest requirements on emissions for any petrol driven vehicle of testable age and therefore we don't have to go down the long winded and time wasting route of finding and entering vehicle specific information. Just out of interest, how many BET tests have been carried out by anyone have passed with no cat fitted? All this discussion over something that probably will never happen........ Baz, I am sure I said; So both BET and CAT Test are the same reading the manualAll this has been sparked off because VOSA's trainer on the DVD made the point that a vehicle which passes the BET Test does not fail for having no cat fitted? I was quite OK with it until VOSA messed it up lol ;D Dave
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nitros44
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Post by nitros44 on Feb 23, 2012 20:35:02 GMT
He doesn't mention bet test on the DVD only full cat test Dave
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Post by offroad on Feb 23, 2012 20:56:43 GMT
part of my reply from vosa. so disregarding the bet results will sureally stall you on the flow chart and no car would ever get to have a full cat test. not what they want to happen but i guess there`s no change there.
Q1. MoI 7.1.3 has been amended to try to avoid this confusion. The amended Manual will be released in the spring at the same time as the new components become testable. The amended wording states:
"On petrol engine vehicles that qualify for a full catalyst emissions test, check the presence of the catalytic converter.
Note: To ascertain whether a vehicle qualifies for a full catalyst test, use the flow charts in Section 7.3.C disregarding the result of the Basic Emissions Test."
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