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Post by chris27 on Nov 10, 2010 15:49:32 GMT
Hi guys
Hoping to find the answer to this one;
I have got a 2003 Volvo XC90 (automatic) which has a Haldex 4WD system and I am getting conflicting advice as to whether the MOT brake test should be done on the road using a Tapley meter or on rollers. The garage that has MOT'ed it previously tested the brakes on the road while new garage booked for Saturday says rollers are fine but in any event they can only go by the VT40 says? Any thoughts?
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Daveg
NT & VTS Council member
I believe I am perfect, but others may differ in opinion?
Posts: 1,549
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Post by Daveg on Nov 10, 2010 19:44:11 GMT
Hi Chris, welcome to the forum. The VT40 is a general instruction to bring to the attention of the nominated tester any peculiarity with the vehicle that the nominated tester needs to be aware of. I have tested vehicles where the VT40 has advised that a nominated tester should only carry out a roller brake test to the specific vehicle in question, if the nominated tester knows that it can be tested without causing any damage to the vehicle. How does a nominated tester know this before a roller brake test has been tried? The VT40 is worded in such a way that it makes the nominated tester responsible, therefore VOSA have not got a definitive answer to give to the nominated testers. I have tested vehicles on the roller brake tester where the VT40 makes me aware of such instances, sometimes vehicles have no problems at all when testing them, others start to snatch on the rollers when operated, and in those instances I immediately shut off the rollers and carry out a decelerometer test. There is no hard and fast answer to your question, it is entiry up to the nominated tester and experince to decide which action to take, you the presenter of the vehicle have no worries, the AE is responsible for any damage caused Dave
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hayden
Nominated Tester
VTS AEDM, SM & QC
Posts: 828
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Post by hayden on Nov 11, 2010 7:20:51 GMT
hi chris, welcome to the forum. personally if i was not familiar with the vehicle and there was any doubt as to whether using the RBT would cause damage to the vehicle i would not use it. yes the AE is responsible for any damage but i am sure some would find a way of blaming the presenter. then there is the inconvenience to the presenter whose vehicle has been damaged and could be off the road for days even weeks awaiting parts for repair, bad news if it is used in running his / her business. the mot is still being done within VOSA rules by using the deccelerometer and you could be keeping the lid shut on a possibly big can of worms. chris, you could phone your local VOLVO dealer and ask them what the recommendation is and if they do their own testing what do they do.
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Post by chris27 on Nov 11, 2010 12:19:28 GMT
Thanks for the replies. I had spoken to a couple of Volvo dealers before posting; one said they put them on rollers, another did not know as they outsourced their MoTs. Another garage's tester (non Volvo) has told me that to avoid any possible risk he would do a road test. So nothing really conclusive. My gut feeling is that it should be fine (touch wood) and certainly it is a different issue to putting a Haldex equiped car on a dyno, as the wheels are pushed by the rollers and not the other way round. My worry is whether the traction control/ESP might be confused and try to engage RWD which could be interesting to say the least. Maybe switching of the TC/ESP would save any potential issues or does a car have to be tested with this on if it is there? It could be that I am worrying about nothing as there are thousands of Haldex equiped cars out there. All those VAG models like Audi TT, R32, Skoda 4x4, plus Volvo XC's and I guess this would be a bigger issue if there were problems being caused. I agree that it is a bit crap to put the responsibility onto the tester as it would be very difficult to prove that they might have solely caused any problem, even if it was immediately apparent. Still no harm in reminding the tester on Saturday of the cost a new centre diff/gearbox on an XC90 and see if he is still as confident! Will let you know how I get on
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hayden
Nominated Tester
VTS AEDM, SM & QC
Posts: 828
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Post by hayden on Nov 11, 2010 13:48:08 GMT
good luck.
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Post by westtime on Nov 11, 2010 21:39:57 GMT
Hi chris if you came to me for the test it would be tested with a road test I test all 4x4 that way for the obvious reasons above so my advice is tell the m o t man to test on road Dennis
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Daveg
NT & VTS Council member
I believe I am perfect, but others may differ in opinion?
Posts: 1,549
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Post by Daveg on Nov 12, 2010 18:49:52 GMT
I am quite confident that the following could never occur LOL ;D
yes the AE is responsible for any damage but i am sure some would find a way of blaming the presenter.
If I took my vehicle to a Test Station, VOSA Approved, booked in for an MOT and the NT, AE took the vehicle and then tested it, then told me that during the roller brake test my vehicle had been damaged, and that it was my fault, what would make it my fault?
On the VT40 there is a phone number printed for a NT to ring if any additional information is required. As far as I am aware it is not linked to VOSA's people and is the manufacturers agents, so their advice should be better than VOSA for technical issues like these.
At the start on the test before leaving Computerisation, if the VT40 gives advice, or the VSI information gives advice about Roller Brake Testing a vehicle, then at that point the right thing to do is make the phone call, then if an NT tests the vehicle and has been told it's OK, but later finds damage occurs, then although the AE is still responsible, the manufacturers agent could be sued if damage did occur.
Record the persons name and department worked in for later reference if necessary.
Dave
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hayden
Nominated Tester
VTS AEDM, SM & QC
Posts: 828
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Post by hayden on Nov 13, 2010 0:41:39 GMT
far too long winded and they could be wrong too and still does not help the presenter who's car is sitting at the VTS going nowhere till repaired if things go pear shaped even after telephone advice. 5 minutes with a deccelerometer on the road, job done no hassle can of worms still shut and everyone happy. ;D
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Post by chris27 on Nov 15, 2010 8:59:38 GMT
Update
The tester (and his boss) were adamant that the rollers would be fine and the transmission appears to be all ok.
Not that things went smoothly though, the tester managed to snap the handbrake release cable during the test (it has a foot operated handbrake like a Mercedes). How he managed to do this I don't know, but what really ****ed me off, was that he just parked the car up afterwards and pretended that nothing happened. Maybe it did "just broke in my hand" (as my five year old son might say) but he was clearly hoping that I wouldn't notice.
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hayden
Nominated Tester
VTS AEDM, SM & QC
Posts: 828
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Post by hayden on Nov 15, 2010 9:14:53 GMT
hi chris, it would be virtually impossible to prove that the cable snapped due to being incorrectly tested but in my opinion it should have been done with a decelerometer on the road, absolutely no excuse for not telling you the cable had broken.
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Post by chris27 on Nov 15, 2010 9:51:31 GMT
Unfortunately the foot/hand brake on these is next to useless and even when properly adjusted only just passes, so very likely that it would have required a hefty shove to get the required reading. I agree that it would be difficult to prove that the tester was at fault, and that is not really my gripe, these things do happen. It was the way that he a) tried to firstly deny any problem and b) suggesting it was like that when I arrived.
Should the tester still have issued a certificate with the release cable clearly having snapped during the test?
They did ask if I wanted them to carry out the cam belt change and service next month....
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hayden
Nominated Tester
VTS AEDM, SM & QC
Posts: 828
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Post by hayden on Nov 15, 2010 10:37:57 GMT
hi chris, if the brake cable snapped during the brake test and effected the readings or as they suggested it was presented like that it should have failed. seems to me you were issued a pass so as to take away any responsibility and possible repair costs on themselves.you could complain to VOSA but it would be your word against theirs as to when it broke. for future reference follow link to e-mail haldex to find out if your car can or cannot be roller brake tested. www.haldex.com/en/Global/Applications--Products/Product-categories/AWD/AWD-Club/Tech-Questions1/
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Post by chris27 on Nov 15, 2010 12:17:48 GMT
It wasn't the handbrake cable itself that snapped, but the cable that runs from the handle and that releases the ratchet
To get an acceptable reading, the handbrake pedal would have to be pushed to significant degree, thus placing the holding ratchet under a good deal of pressure. I would have thought that the ratchet release cable would only have snapped when being pulled in trying to release the handbrake by pulling on the release handle to free off the handbrake. I reckon he would have had to somehow manually release the ratchet in order to free it. All going to be difficult to prove of course if this was the case.
When testing the working of a "normal" handbrake, I guess that it is fairly easy for one tester in the car to hold the handbrake button in and to move the handbrake up and down to see it is all working correctly. How would you do this with a foot operated parking brake? Likewise, if you are testing a foot operated handbrake do you keep the ratchet off as you apply the handbrake?
Sorry for all the questions but just found out that the replacement cable is £64 plus 2 hours fitting so want to get to the bottom of this.
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hayden
Nominated Tester
VTS AEDM, SM & QC
Posts: 828
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Post by hayden on Nov 15, 2010 19:57:19 GMT
all parts of the mechanical side of the parking brake must work as designed to pass an MOT TEST. here is the criteria from the testers manual www.motinfo.gov.uk/htdocs/m4s03000101.htm this is how i test this type of parking brake. i pull out the release lever and hold it out whilst STEADILY depressing pedal until a reading is achieved then release foot pedal. if the release lever cannot be released as designed then it is a fail. don't worry about how many questions you ask that is why the forum and it's members are here.
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Post by chris27 on Nov 19, 2010 9:13:08 GMT
Thanks hayden for the info. The replacement cable has been fitted now, so that at least the car is legal again. I will start by asking for a contribution towards this cost (£150 all in) If they had said immediately that the cable had snapped during the test then I would have had little problem in paying for both the part and the labour and would have accepted that it must have been on its way out anyway. What is making me think about going for the jugular is the way I believe they sought to hide what happened and issued a certificate anyway. I am probably not going to get much encouragement to go for a fellow MoT tester on this forum, but I would hope that if there are rotten apples you would want to see them dealt with appropriately if they are in the wrong.
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hayden
Nominated Tester
VTS AEDM, SM & QC
Posts: 828
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Post by hayden on Nov 19, 2010 17:47:38 GMT
hi chris, i can only speak for myself but feel sure other testers will agree that we would not defend another tester or VTS who brings the MOT SCHEME into disrepute and gives the rest of us a bad name. if they have done wrong then they need to be dealt with. good luck in whatever you decide to do.
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Daveg
NT & VTS Council member
I believe I am perfect, but others may differ in opinion?
Posts: 1,549
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Post by Daveg on Nov 19, 2010 19:46:14 GMT
far too long winded and they could be wrong too and still does not help the presenter who's car is sitting at the VTS going nowhere till repaired if things go pear shaped even after telephone advice. 5 minutes with a deccelerometer on the road, job done no hassle can of worms still shut and everyone happy. ;D Interesting answer that one hayden, so what would you do if you had a full days mot tests booked in, which unforseen required a decelometer test, but we had heavy snow and ice on the chosen roads to use, or all roads to be exact As I said previously, there is no definitive answer? Dave
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hayden
Nominated Tester
VTS AEDM, SM & QC
Posts: 828
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Post by hayden on Nov 20, 2010 9:08:58 GMT
hi dave.my post's were based around chris's problem but in answer to your question VOSA state you can drive a reasonable distance from the VTS to carry out a deccelerometer brake test so you could look for a gritted road. if you are unfortunate enough to test in Greenland where 3/4 of the land mass is under ice (discovery channel last week) ;D then you could abort the test and state the reason why. seriously though, last winter (worst snow ever where i live) i put a similar scenario to VOSA and that is what they said find a safe road or abort test and state reason why.
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Post by chris27 on Nov 22, 2010 11:45:13 GMT
far too long winded and they could be wrong too and still does not help the presenter who's car is sitting at the VTS going nowhere till repaired if things go pear shaped even after telephone advice. 5 minutes with a deccelerometer on the road, job done no hassle can of worms still shut and everyone happy. ;D Interesting answer that one hayden, so what would you do if you had a full days mot tests booked in, which unforseen required a decelometer test, but we had heavy snow and ice on the chosen roads to use, or all roads to be exact As I said previously, there is no definitive answer? Dave I think that what would be helpful for me (and maybe others) is to have some clearer guidance of what to expect in normal, predictable circumstances. I think most reasonable customers would not find it strange for their test to be postponed because of "heavy snow and ice" if their vehicle required a brake test to be carried out on the road and that was then deemed to be unsafe. Anyway, I have written to the owner of the centre to put forward my concerns. I have no wish to instigate a witch-hunt, but it looks as though, the certificate should not have been issued, yet alone leaving me to drive off in an un-roadworthy car in the hope that it was not going to be noticed. I don't think I am being unreasonable given the circumstances, to ask for them to pay for the repair. I have not even factored in that has probably cost another £50 in extra incidental costs.
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hayden
Nominated Tester
VTS AEDM, SM & QC
Posts: 828
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Post by hayden on Nov 22, 2010 11:53:08 GMT
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