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Post by excessive on Jul 19, 2012 10:16:55 GMT
Its obvious the gaiter is split,but take another look at the photo and see what has come out of the gaiter in the vicinity of the holes and ask the question what the substance is likely to do in the shorterm with regards to dirt.dust,water from floods ,water from highways.water from streams and if your feeling brave how about a river.The holes aren't that big and take into consideration the location on the shaft with regards to the issue No matter the scenario, the fact is a hole (let alone three) does not stop ingressVosa on the other hand might have their own take on it. In that case they need to change the wording of the rfr.
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prb5244
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Post by prb5244 on Jul 19, 2012 20:38:18 GMT
I would fail this one when doing lock to lock with the pleat at full lock it is obvious you would be able to see the joint so the dirt can get in tiny splits I pass and advise
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Daveg
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Post by Daveg on Jul 19, 2012 20:55:05 GMT
The problem with the pleats expanding on full lock is that the damage to the gaiter caused the pleats to close when stretched, this was because of the way the damage had occured to the pleats. If the damage to the pleats had been vertically then yes when expanded they would open, but given the damage is horizontal they did not expand when on full lock. Dave
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nitros44
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esto es un negocio serio
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Post by nitros44 on Jul 19, 2012 21:31:34 GMT
Having the vehicle on full lock Nitros would open the split up in exactly the same way as jacking the vehicle up. In the photo the edges of the split are clearly not together and sealing against 'the ingress of dirt etc'. Again I say the manual does not ask you to prove that it is going to be assaulted by 'dirt etc', it only asks can the gaiter keep it out. In the case of the gaiter in the photo, clearly it cannot. I too believe that just because grease is coming out, doesn't automatically mean dirt can get in, but in that photo, it clearly can. If I repeat what I said in my last post, If the driver was trying to go through a flood deep enough to go above that gaiter, then you will find 'etc' flowing in through that split and into the joint. Nothing is going to change that. Can you guarantee 100% that that situation could never arise? No. It's a fail. Dave, agreed on your brake readings, can't comment on your brake pipes, but happy to accept your decision. ;D I don't know why we are discussing water here as a issue as its not even in the reason for rejection on the VTS device.The reason for rejection is "INGRESS OF DIRT". The method of inspection contains instructions to check visually the condition of the gaiters.meaning you cant manipulate the gaiter to expose the internals.The next important fact is;has the gaiter reached the limit where VOSA say that the damage is excessive.My feelings are that Vosa will not have a limit and it will be up to the tester to decide. In my opinion before deciding to fail the gaiter a tester must establish 1st that the gaiter has reached the limit where it has become excessively damaged,then decide on the ingress issue,the way some replies are posted within this thread, it would appear that the ingress issue is the only issue and the excessive criteria is being overlooked. The damage on the gaiter at the time of test does not look excessive to me and i would say that judging by the size of the holes and the amount of grease surrounding the damage,any dirt in the vicinity will find it extremely difficult to enter the gaiter for now anyway. Edit to include a photo example of excessive damage/deteriation in my opinion and are not the gaiter in qustion Attachments:
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nitros44
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Post by nitros44 on Jul 19, 2012 21:36:37 GMT
Excessive yes or no? Attachments:
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nitros44
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Post by nitros44 on Jul 19, 2012 21:37:22 GMT
excessive yes or no Attachments:
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nitros44
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esto es un negocio serio
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Post by nitros44 on Jul 19, 2012 21:39:28 GMT
In compression with Daveg gaiter which he passed/advised............ Good call Dave
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Daveg
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Post by Daveg on Jul 19, 2012 21:41:46 GMT
I think all could agree that those latest examples are all excessive You been splitting boots LOL ;D Dave
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nitros44
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Post by nitros44 on Jul 19, 2012 21:48:38 GMT
All to day
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Post by aylesburyjock on Jul 20, 2012 6:12:30 GMT
Having the vehicle on full lock Nitros would open the split up in exactly the same way as jacking the vehicle up. In the photo the edges of the split are clearly not together and sealing against 'the ingress of dirt etc'. Again I say the manual does not ask you to prove that it is going to be assaulted by 'dirt etc', it only asks can the gaiter keep it out. In the case of the gaiter in the photo, clearly it cannot. I too believe that just because grease is coming out, doesn't automatically mean dirt can get in, but in that photo, it clearly can. If I repeat what I said in my last post, If the driver was trying to go through a flood deep enough to go above that gaiter, then you will find 'etc' flowing in through that split and into the joint. Nothing is going to change that. Can you guarantee 100% that that situation could never arise? No. It's a fail. Dave, agreed on your brake readings, can't comment on your brake pipes, but happy to accept your decision. ;D I don't know why we are discussing water here as a issue as its not even in the reason for rejection on the VTS device.The reason for rejection is "INGRESS OF DIRT". The method of inspection contains instructions to check visually the condition of the gaiters.meaning you cant manipulate the gaiter to expose the internals.The next important fact is;has the gaiter reached the limit where VOSA say that the damage is excessive.My feelings are that Vosa will not have a limit and it will be up to the tester to decide. In my opinion before deciding to fail the gaiter a tester must establish 1st that the gaiter has reached the limit where it has become excessively damaged,then decide on the ingress issue,the way some replies are posted within this thread, it would appear that the ingress issue is the only issue and the excessive criteria is being overlooked. The damage on the gaiter at the time of test does not look excessive to me and i would say that judging by the size of the holes and the amount of grease surrounding the damage,any dirt in the vicinity will find it extremely difficult to enter the gaiter for now anyway. Edit to include a photo example of excessive damage/deteriation in my opinion and are not the gaiter in qustion We are discussing water because the actual rfr is the ingress of dirt etc, and we are discussing water as an etc. The excessive criteria is all tied up with the ingress because if it can no longer prevent the ingress of dirt etc, then it is deemed excessively damaged or deteriorated. if, in your opinion, it is able to prevent ingress, then the damage or deterioration is not excessive.
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Post by excessive on Jul 20, 2012 12:27:53 GMT
To be fair it does say 'ingress of dirt etc' as Jock quite rightly points out.
I hear what is being said about assessing the gaiter for excessive damage and then deciding whether you need to carry on to the next part of the rfr (the ingress)
But, you are blurring the lines between rfr and moi by doing it this way.
After all, excessive and ingress are combined within the same sentence of the rfr. They go hand in hand, you can't have one and not the other.
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alex
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Post by alex on Jul 20, 2012 17:58:29 GMT
It states dirt on vt30 and in manual it states dirt etc.if its clearly deteriorated or damaged to prevent the ingress of dirt ETC then for me it's a fail,like I said in a previous post common sense is needed I,m NOT going to fail every seal that is split unless it meets the criteria as stated in the inspection manual simples
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Post by aylesburyjock on Jul 20, 2012 18:40:33 GMT
Simples for me too, but I doubt if we will all agree. Still, this debate has been entertaining.
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Post by nicky on Jul 22, 2012 20:34:54 GMT
when i did my course at vosa a few months ago the trainer spoke alot about the new rfr"s and the trainer showed us a few examples of the boots and the ones he said would possible pass and advise were worse then the one in Daveg photo.By what i was told this damage in the photo would not be a fail
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Daveg
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Post by Daveg on Jul 22, 2012 21:38:16 GMT
The problem with the NT's on this forum , is that they are too dam keen and like to fail everything ;D Daveg
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Post by David on Jul 23, 2012 14:13:19 GMT
....plain and simple failure...no questions or ridicules interpretations of the manual needed daveg....
....if grease can get out, dirt can get in....it might be re-worded but the fail criteria is the same
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Daveg
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Post by Daveg on Jul 23, 2012 18:28:10 GMT
....plain and simple failure...no questions or ridicules interpretations of the manual needed daveg.... ....if grease can get out, dirt can get in....it might be re-worded but the fail criteria is the same Nicky wrote; when i did my course at vosa a few months ago the trainer spoke alot about the new rfr"s and the trainer showed us a few examples of the boots and the ones he said would possible pass and advise were worse then the one in Daveg photo.By what i was told this damage in the photo would not be a fail Dave , your not ready LOL for making decisions Daveg
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phaetonott
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Post by phaetonott on Jul 23, 2012 22:57:24 GMT
I'd probably fail it.
But then I live in the country where theres a lot more mud and cowsh1t than there is bullsh1t.
That boot going down a farm drive ploughing through 18" deep water at 5mph isn't going to be subject to much of your centrifugal force Dave, And whoever said the rfr didn't mention water but refered to dirt...... You wouldn't want to drink that water!
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Post by biggestgerbil on Jul 24, 2012 7:16:58 GMT
I tested a vehicle yesterday and while both CV gaiters were in good condition, they had both shed their outer (larger) securing clips, making them insecure. ( also they gaped open on full lock) My first inclination was to pass and advise. Upon entering my test results there was nowhere I could do this. My only option was to fail them.
BG
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Post by aylesburyjock on Jul 24, 2012 8:19:19 GMT
Pass and advise when gaping on full lock? Why? Is Daveg bribing you?
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