Daveg
NT & VTS Council member
I believe I am perfect, but others may differ in opinion?
Posts: 1,549
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Post by Daveg on Feb 9, 2012 18:03:22 GMT
OK so I will clarify this point for all VOSA beyond doubt will agree with what I say , just ask them if you don't believe me Coil Springs Location on or in a Spring SeatA coil spring not correctly located applies to those springs which do not sit in/on their seats. This may be the result of a shortened, incorrect, worn or broken springs. In the case of shortened springs this may occur during the test when the vehicle is jacked up and subsequently lowered, but maybe noticed before the vehicle is jacked up. Some reaction in the spring during turning is expected and the "Buffer" is generallly intended merely as a stop to prevent the spring contineously turning. So long as the spring is located onto or in the spring seat, the exact location of the spring end is not relevant for the mot test. Dave
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wingnut
Nominated Tester
Posts: 186
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Post by wingnut on Feb 9, 2012 19:31:38 GMT
What if it the spring end is broke at the top allowing the incorrect position of the top mount on some cars to effect the castor and KPI to drift way out of sink ?
What if the spring is so short that it can be removed when hanging on some cars. If it came out on a hump back bridge causing a fatal accident who is to blame.
Also if the car is lop sided and a road test is given due to suspect handling and found that the steering pulls to the extent that the car is undrivable in a saftey manner. All pass and advise after adjusting the lights?
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alex
Nominated Tester
Posts: 305
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Post by alex on Feb 9, 2012 20:14:38 GMT
Surely and this is my only my opinion but an extreme end isnt a full coil missing/snapped this does need some clarification from the powers that be,if the spring locates then p&a but where do we draw the line,if I found a full coil snapped then personally I,d fail it I may be wrong,but that to me is more than an extreme end.
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wally
Nominated Tester
Posts: 139
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Post by wally on Feb 9, 2012 23:17:10 GMT
Just a thought, I know a ruler is not part of a test except to measure with but - How much constitutes the extreme end of a twelve inch ruler? Is it just the margin between the marked area and the end of the ruler? ;D (as long as it hasn't got any stickers on) ;D Wally
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Post by baz657 on Feb 10, 2012 10:03:45 GMT
My read on these.... What if it the spring end is broke at the top allowing the incorrect position of the top mount on some cars to effect the castor and KPI to drift way out of sink ? Pass and advise What if the spring is so short that it can be removed when hanging on some cars. If it came out on a hump back bridge causing a fatal accident who is to blame. Fail Also if the car is lop sided and a road test is given due to suspect handling and found that the steering pulls to the extent that the car is undrivable in a saftey manner. All pass and advise after adjusting the lights? Fail (as long as it hasn't got any stickers on) ;D Wally ;D ;D ;D
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Post by westtime on Feb 10, 2012 21:50:47 GMT
I went to my local ford dealer to day for a front road spring for a 57 plate mondeo on inspecting the spring before I left I noticed that the end was broken off so I asked the parts man to change it for a new one he replied oh its ok the vosa man said you can pass and advise the customer because it fulfills the requirements for the m o t silly I know
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Post by flashgordon1 on Feb 10, 2012 22:36:22 GMT
I will continue to fail coil springs if i feel they pose a danger to brake pipes, steering or any other safety aspect.
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Stealth
Full Member
God made me do it !!
Posts: 79
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Post by Stealth on Feb 11, 2012 10:31:24 GMT
OK so I will clarify this point for all VOSA beyond doubt will agree with what I say , just ask them if you don't believe me Coil Springs Location on or in a Spring SeatA coil spring not correctly located applies to those springs which do not sit in/on their seats. This may be the result of a shortened, incorrect, worn or broken springs. In the case of shortened springs this may occur during the test when the vehicle is jacked up and subsequently lowered, but maybe noticed before the vehicle is jacked up. Some reaction in the spring during turning is expected and the "Buffer" is generallly intended merely as a stop to prevent the spring contineously turning. So long as the spring is located onto or in the spring seat, the exact location of the spring end is not relevant for the mot test. Dave Well you've pretty much told us what the Manual says Daveg ...... Where a coil spring is incomplete, cracked or fractured at an extreme end where the spring locates on the spring mount, it should only be rejected if: · the function of the spring is impaired · following jacking, the spring ends do not locate correctly when the vehicle is lowered into the normal running position without assistance These criteria should also be applied to springs that have been deliberately shortened or modified in order to lower the suspension
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Post by baz657 on Feb 11, 2012 10:41:03 GMT
I will continue to fail coil springs if i feel they pose a danger to brake pipes, steering or any other safety aspect. The only possible problem there is that the test is not about "what if..." - it's about "what is..." Generally (not always before I get everyone jumping down my throat) a "what if" situation will be a pass and advise. You've done the job VOSA require of you - you have noted that whilst the vehicle meets the lowly MOT standards here and now (not forgetting that the MOT standard is way below service standard), it may not any time in the future. We may not agree with them but those are the conditions and rules we test with.
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Stealth
Full Member
God made me do it !!
Posts: 79
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Post by Stealth on Feb 11, 2012 11:26:53 GMT
Well said baz - and absolutely correct - the MOT is a 'snapshot' of the condition of the vehicle at the time of inspection - nothing more & nothing less, and does not take into acount what if's & maybe's - thats what advisories are for.
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Post by aylesburyjock on Feb 11, 2012 12:00:04 GMT
Well said baz - and absolutely correct - the MOT is a 'snapshot' of the condition of the vehicle at the time of inspection - nothing more & nothing less, and does not take into acount what if's & maybe's - thats what advisories are for. Except of course, the new euro rules on ball joint dust covers ect
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Stealth
Full Member
God made me do it !!
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Post by Stealth on Feb 11, 2012 14:15:43 GMT
Except of course, the new euro rules on ball joint dust covers ect Just the same from a testers perspective jock - if the split can allow ingress of dirt or water when you examine it then it's a fail - if not then pass & advise - the assessment is only relevant to the time of test
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Post by aylesburyjock on Feb 11, 2012 14:35:08 GMT
My little jest Stealth, but not without reason. What I was getting at is this is no longer the minimum safety standard we all know and love so much. We are now saying that dust cover can no longer keep out dirt, 'What if' that dirt wears the ball joint? we must fail it just in case. As I said in the previous post, I know it's a european thing and we have no say in it, but it is changing the test standards. But then we have always had our complaints about the low MOT standards, so maybe we should rejoice. Maybe the subject deserves a thread of it's own
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Daveg
NT & VTS Council member
I believe I am perfect, but others may differ in opinion?
Posts: 1,549
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Post by Daveg on Feb 11, 2012 15:07:06 GMT
Ball joints have pass the mot in the past forever with dust covers damaged/deteriorated/ missing etc, even without grease in and in a rusty condition, did the evidence ever suggest that the dust cover itself ever prove a road safety issue on it's own? Ironic that we now fail these items based on no evidence that they are a real cause for concern, but experience has shown that failing suspension springs in the past was an unnecessary cost to the public, because there was no evidence in most cases, except Renaults that they were a serious cause for concern, so now we can pass and advise them, unless it is absolutely clear that the spring is dangerous to road safety, which still seems to be a personal opinion to some without valid real evidence of such! Dave
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Daveg
NT & VTS Council member
I believe I am perfect, but others may differ in opinion?
Posts: 1,549
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Post by Daveg on Feb 11, 2012 15:29:27 GMT
OK so I will clarify this point for all VOSA beyond doubt will agree with what I say , just ask them if you don't believe me Coil Springs Location on or in a Spring SeatA coil spring not correctly located applies to those springs which do not sit in/on their seats. This may be the result of a shortened, incorrect, worn or broken springs. In the case of shortened springs this may occur during the test when the vehicle is jacked up and subsequently lowered, but maybe noticed before the vehicle is jacked up. Some reaction in the spring during turning is expected and the "Buffer" is generallly intended merely as a stop to prevent the spring contineously turning. So long as the spring is located onto or in the spring seat, the exact location of the spring end is not relevant for the mot test. Dave Well you've pretty much told us what the Manual says Daveg ...... Where a coil spring is incomplete, cracked or fractured at an extreme end where the spring locates on the spring mount, it should only be rejected if: · the function of the spring is impaired · following jacking, the spring ends do not locate correctly when the vehicle is lowered into the normal running position without assistance These criteria should also be applied to springs that have been deliberately shortened or modified in order to lower the suspension The point I was trying to get members to see above was not song and verse of the manual Stealth, but what the manual does not make clear, which had nothing to do with what you wrote above, or trying to single me out here as quoting the book, which is your job LOL The point being made was as re-written here, and not available in the manual, but is an understanding; A coil spring fractured or incomplete.A coil spring in the above condition from an mot minimum standard can still be correctly located. A coil spring not correctly located applies to those springs which do not sit in/on their seats, this may be as a result of a shortened, incorrect, worn or broken springs. Some reaction in the spring during turning is expected and the "buffer" is generally intended merely as a stop to prevent the spring contineously turning. If the spring is located in/on their seat, but is fractured or incomplete, will settle in/on the seat without help after jacking and lowering, then the spring is a pass and advise I believe, even when the spring end is not located at the position of the buffer. I believe the highlighted points are not in the manual LOL The manual says; Check that both ends of the springs are correctly located, the RFR says; A spring not correctly located. I believe forum members were of the understanding that if the spring end is not located at the buffer, then the spring fails for not being correctly located, which is the point I was trying to make clear. Located just means in or on the spring seat. Knowck yourself out Stealth LOL and rip the thread to bits ;D, I know you like digging holes in everything I say LOL ;D Dave
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Stealth
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Post by Stealth on Feb 11, 2012 17:16:20 GMT
Agreed Dave - but it will probably only be correctly located if a small piece - ie an extreme end - is broken. Agreed Dave - the Manual says as much ... These criteria should also be applied to springs that have been deliberately shortened or modified in order to lower the suspension Disagree Dave- unless it's only the 'extreme end' of the spring that is broken then the spring end will most probably not be located in the buffer - hence fail. Disgree Dave - if the spring was meant to locate in the buffer & it doesn't as a result of a break then it's not correctly located. Constructive discussion Dave - I'll leave the hole digging to you ;D
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Daveg
NT & VTS Council member
I believe I am perfect, but others may differ in opinion?
Posts: 1,549
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Post by Daveg on Feb 11, 2012 17:41:01 GMT
Agreed Dave - but it will probably only be correctly located if a small piece - ie an extreme end - is broken. Agreed Dave - the Manual says as much ... These criteria should also be applied to springs that have been deliberately shortened or modified in order to lower the suspension Disagree Dave- unless it's only the 'extreme end' of the spring that is broken then the spring end will most probably not be located in the buffer - hence fail. Stealth, you might want to clarify what you have said here with VOSA at Bristol , I am not making up new rules here, but clarifying what Bristol and I have previously said about springs in the past.. When an extreme end is broken and not located in the buffer, this is a pass and advise Disgree Dave - if the spring was meant to locate in the buffer & it doesn't as a result of a break then it's not correctly located. Bristol have agreed that a spring located on or in the spring seat is acceptable as a minimum standard for mot purposes, where the spring end is broken Constructive discussion Dave - I'll leave the hole digging to you ;D The highlighted points above I have made where what Bristol advised were a minimum acceptable standard for the mot test, if as you say Stealth, the spring end not correctly located at the "buffer" was a fail, then the new manual advising testers to pass and advise a fractured spring would be wrong by VOSA to mislead testers no? Note. Where a coil spring is incomplete, cracked or fractured at an extreme end where the spring locates on the spring mount, it should only be rejected if; 1 / The function of the spring is impeared, 2 / Following jacking, the spring ends do not locate correctly when the vehicle is lowered into the normal running position without assistance. Number (2) I take to mean that I don't have to hold the spring in position while lowering the vehicle down to the normal ride position. So by example a MacPherson strut suspension leg with the coil spring fractured at the top or the bottom when the vehicle is jacked and the suspension is hanging free, the spring extreme end being fractured based on experience now tells me that the spring being still in tension does not move, therefore when lowered the spring is unaffected and is still located in the spring mount/seat and would be a pass and advise Dave ;D
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phaetonott
Nominated Tester
I may not be right but at least I am trying!
Posts: 376
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Post by phaetonott on Feb 14, 2012 3:07:52 GMT
Just a thought... I have them occasionally
Tapered coil springs.
The 50 mm approx end of the spring locaces round a 50mm spigot hanging down from the upper spring pan. if half that coil is missing, the spring might not be correctly located.
I still think back to a t5 transporter where the broken end of the coil was hitting the spring pan at about a 15 degree angle, and cut itself a hole in the pan, The end coil, which was missing was supposed to be flat against the surface of the pan,
Still at least you couldn't say the spring was loose. or likely to fall out if the vehicle took off over a hump because we had to hammer and crowbar the spring out of its hole. The taper of the coil had tightened it well in there
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Daveg
NT & VTS Council member
I believe I am perfect, but others may differ in opinion?
Posts: 1,549
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Post by Daveg on Feb 14, 2012 19:18:25 GMT
We can't prove what will happen out on the open road after an mot test , and we know already during the mot test that whatever we think will happen on the open road will probably not happen anyway, because the vehicle is now in the test bay with the defect looking directly at us , so whatever the NT says will happen, probably won't, otherwise it would have already happend before the inspection ;D The imagination can run riot, one can believe that anything will happen to a vehicle once it leaves the station, but in reality that does not matter, at the time of test the examination is a visual inspection in a test bay using more often than not just your vision and a pry bar in some parts of the inspection. Why go over the top, you can't prove a fracture in a spring is dangerous unless you can see clearly that the spring is off the seat and likely to pierce the tyre, VOSA have given instruction to pass and advise, so somebody must have done their homework and technically we should know better than them, we test them they don't? Dave Dave
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Post by flashgordon1 on Feb 14, 2012 21:49:42 GMT
So what are you really saying Dave. We inspectors should not apply our expertise in the inspection of coil springs. Tyres are the least of my concerns...............flexi brake pipes and steering components are at the top of my list for damage/problems to occur.............
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