Additional brake light

[khushahmed]

Hi All

Just a quick one if a vehicle is fitted either factory or additional brake light and i doesnt work at time of test is this a failure or advise ?
Just a discussion i was having with another tester who said it doesnt count im sure i read if fitted should work

[andy2374]

if you have a doubt that it may not be connected you can pass and advise

[graham]

See this months (April) Matter of Testing

[Daveg]

Try this one in the testing rule book for failing lights correctly?

High level stop lamp fitted flashes constantly when hazards warning lamps switched on.

Stop lamps functionally impaired in operation.

Stop lamps interfer with indicators

Side (position) lamps functionally impaired
Side (position) lamps do not operate when hazard/indicators switched on?
indicators operate the stop lamps?
When position lamps/indicators or hazards lamps switched on, and stop lamps operated, all lamps go dim and indicators/hazards fail to operate?

and that is just assuming I remeber it correctly from testing it, but try getting that lot right in the computer for failing it as VOSA would like it to be shown on a VT30?

Dave

[khushahmed]

So best practice is pass & advise

Thanks all

[doodle]

Apr 8, 2010 11:46:50 GMT graham said:

See this months (April) Matter of Testing

I read that and I dosn't really help much

as far as I get it, if the high level stop lamp is not working and you can't definitely see it's connected(witch in most cases you can't) -pass and advise

if less than 50% of the lamp is working - fail


It's one of them stupid mistakes in the MOT system that will probaly take ten years(or more) to sort out

[aylesburyjock]

May 28, 2010 0:31:25 GMT doodle said:

Apr 8, 2010 11:46:50 GMT graham said:

See this months (April) Matter of Testing

I read that and I dosn't really help much

as far as I get it, if the high level stop lamp is not working and you can't definitely see it's connected(witch in most cases you can't) -pass and advise

if less than 50% of the lamp is working - fail


It's one of them stupid mistakes in the MOT system that will probaly take ten years(or more) to sort out

If the high level stop lamp is not working, you fail for stop lamp not working. If the presenter then tells you it ts not connected you must take his word for it and pass and advise, noting that you were informed so by the presenter. You must fail it in the first instance because you can't know if it is connected

[hayden]

if it does not work and you don't know if it is connected then it is a pass and advise as the benefit of the doubt has to be given to the presenter as stated in the TESTERS MANUAL. quote: Vehicles first used on or after 1 January 1971 must be fitted with two obligatory stop lamps. Additional stop lamps fitted and connected must be tested. Where extra lamps are fitted and there is doubt as to whether they are connected, the benefit of this doubt should be given to the presenter, in other words pass and advise. it would be difficult to prove it is connected and not working without checking wires to the lamp etc. which in most cases would involve some disassembly which we are not allowed to do. this is a bit of a grey area and my post is my interpretation of the manual, others may disagree. www.motinfo.gov.uk/htdocs/m4s01000201.htm

[Daveg]

This subject is another good example of how NT's choose to interpret the guidance given in the TM.

Interestingly the manual's information column says;

Vehicles first used before 01st January 1971 must be fitted with ONE stop lamp either on or to the offside of the vehicle centre line, then the information column says, if such a vehicle has two lamps fitted, then the vehicle should be treated as of first used on or after January 01st 1971, which then says that two obligatory stop lamps must be fitted, but it does not say where they must be fitted!

The information column refers to additional stop lamps fitted, but does not mention "Where fitted", so just because experience has shown that after depressing the brake pedal and an additional lamp has illuminated within the rear window, or loading door of a panel van, this does not mean that everytime an NT sees a lamp fitted into the rear of a vehicle, that it should be automatically taken as it is a stop lamp, because it may not be, which is why the TM says that the benfit of doubt should be given to the presenter of the vehicle, as Hayden points out in his post previously.

Sounds like a case of too much personal opinion to me holding the presenter over a barrel and saying I will fail your vehicle based on what I choose to believe

Dave

[shpauly]

Nov 17, 2010 21:48:42 GMT Daveg said:

This subject is another good example of how NT's choose to interpret the guidance given in the TM.

Interestingly the manual's information column says;

Vehicles first used before 01st January 1971 must be fitted with ONE stop lamp either on or to the offside of the vehicle centre line, then the information column says, if such a vehicle has two lamps fitted, then the vehicle should be treated as of first used on or after January 01st 1971, which then says that two obligatory stop lamps must be fitted, but it does not say where they must be fitted!

The information column refers to additional stop lamps fitted, but does not mention "Where fitted", so just because experience has shown that after depressing the brake pedal and an additional lamp has illuminated within the rear window, or loading door of a panel van, this does not mean that everytime an NT sees a lamp fitted into the rear of a vehicle, that it should be automatically taken as it is a stop lamp, because it may not be, which is why the TM says that the benfit of doubt should be given to the presenter of the vehicle, as Hayden points out in his post previously.

Sounds like a case of too much personal opinion to me holding the presenter over a barrel and saying I will fail your vehicle based on what I choose to believe

Dave

you get to know what cars have high level stop lamps working from new ,majority of them do,early chrysler neons were dummy lights for some reason

[Daveg]

Nov 17, 2010 23:01:49 GMT shpauly said:

Nov 17, 2010 21:48:42 GMT Daveg said:

This subject is another good example of how NT's choose to interpret the guidance given in the TM.

Interestingly the manual's information column says;

Vehicles first used before 01st January 1971 must be fitted with ONE stop lamp either on or to the offside of the vehicle centre line, then the information column says, if such a vehicle has two lamps fitted, then the vehicle should be treated as of first used on or after January 01st 1971, which then says that two obligatory stop lamps must be fitted, but it does not say where they must be fitted!

The information column refers to additional stop lamps fitted, but does not mention "Where fitted", so just because experience has shown that after depressing the brake pedal and an additional lamp has illuminated within the rear window, or loading door of a panel van, this does not mean that everytime an NT sees a lamp fitted into the rear of a vehicle, that it should be automatically taken as it is a stop lamp, because it may not be, which is why the TM says that the benfit of doubt should be given to the presenter of the vehicle, as Hayden points out in his post previously.

Sounds like a case of too much personal opinion to me holding the presenter over a barrel and saying I will fail your vehicle based on what I choose to believe

Dave

you get to know what cars have high level stop lamps working from new ,majority of them do,early chrysler neons were dummy lights for some reason

I respect what you are saying when "you get to know", but the manual is not pointing an NT to that way of thinking, so if a lamp is not functioning when the brake pedal is depressed, then it might not be a stop lamp, so a Pass and Advise is what VOSA say, because it might not be a stop lamp although a tester wants it to be one?

Dave

[shpauly]

Nov 17, 2010 23:11:33 GMT Daveg said:

Nov 17, 2010 23:01:49 GMT shpauly said:

you get to know what cars have high level stop lamps working from new ,majority of them do,early chrysler neons were dummy lights for some reason

I respect what you are saying when "you get to know", but the manual is not pointing an NT to that way of thinking, so if a lamp is not functioning when the brake pedal is depressed, then it might not be a stop lamp, so a Pass and Advise is what VOSA say, because it might not be a stop lamp although a tester wants it to be one?

Dave

so do you pass and advise fiesta/megane high level stop lights?very common for not working?i fail them,put new bulb in them and then they work again!there is no doubt in my mind that they are a high level brake light!if it was a nissan pajero import from zimbabwe and i was unable to see if wired up to brakes then i would pass and advise

[Daveg]

Nov 24, 2010 22:35:18 GMT shpauly said:

Nov 17, 2010 23:11:33 GMT Daveg said:

I respect what you are saying when "you get to know", but the manual is not pointing an NT to that way of thinking, so if a lamp is not functioning when the brake pedal is depressed, then it might not be a stop lamp, so a Pass and Advise is what VOSA say, because it might not be a stop lamp although a tester wants it to be one?

Dave

so do you pass and advise fiesta/megane high level stop lights?very common for not working?i fail them,put new bulb in them and then they work again!there is no doubt in my mind that they are a high level brake light!if it was a nissan pajero import from zimbabwe and i was unable to see if wired up to brakes then i would pass and advise

Without writing the information from the TM, no matter what I want to think or believe, it is VOSA's scheme and their rules, so even if a high level lamp is fitted into the rear of a vehicle, no matter what make, model etc, then the foot brake is depressed, if the lamp does not illuminate by the operation of the foot brake, then initially that lamp is not a brake lamp. If you open the door and check between the door and the bodywork, you might see wiring, but I doubt it, so you probably would see a type of gaiter which covers the wiring, also most vehicles now if not all have heated screens, wiper motors and central locking, all which have wiring, but the point I feel is being missed is that the TM does not ask you to look for wiring, it simply asks is the lamp "Connected", and as I have previously said if the "fuse" is not fitted, then the lamp is not connected

Dave

[hayden]

ref: high level brake light, you cant have different methods of testing for different cars, one rule, TESTERS GUIDE covers all, if it is not working regardless of the reason why the presenter gets the benefit of the doubt and is a pass and advise. it's not rocket science it's what VOSA tell us to do and they make the rules and we cant make it up as we go along even if we disagree with them.

[aylesburyjock]

I might have thrown my tuppence worth in on this subject before elsewhere, can't be sure old age lets the mind wander a bit. If a high level brake lamp is fitted it must work or it is a failure. If, when you give the poor unfortunate the red sheet, he tells you it's not connected you must give him the benefit of the doubt, retest with a pass and advise noting that you were told by presenter. You have no obligation to check wiring etc, but is a failure in the first place same as any other lamp that should work but doesn't. Explanation courtesy of me last refresher course.